What's up with artists contradicting themselves?

[VibrantFox]

i can't properly vent about this on twitter coz nuanced discussion is forever hit and miss but specifically on the topic of value in numbers i don't get why creative communities constantly contradict themselves when various aspects of the whole subject come up

for instance when engagement for folks are low whether by ones own poor marketing or (as a lot of folks intentionally ignore) crappy algorithms many usually turn to finding ways to encourage folks to engage with their work as a means to maintain visibility

however if an individual happens to vent their frustrations in the midst of the same issue it's immediately responded to (literally almost every time) with some variation or another of "you're not owed likes or engagement" "don't put all your worth into engagement" (which yeah that ones true but also if its your livelihood you kind of need the interactions) or your called entitled and other versions of the same thing

all in all i'm just confused like yeah don't put all your worth into how many people are engaging with your work as social media can be fickle and a lot of sites make getting noticed an almost literal game of roulette so a level of self assurance is necessary but if someone is a full-time artists whose financial stability is dependent on the amount of engagement they get or they're just generally trying to market a show, art, comics, whatever a little leniency on knee jerk reactions to honestly pretty justified frustrations should be enough yet for whatever reason people keep falling back on this same thing of "no one owes you anything" "you just need to work harder/market better" (with no real guidance on HOW to do that) and it just goes on and on in this endless loop

literally the only reason i've been so aggressively spurred into this rant is because someone posted a four panel comic wordlessly but pretty clearly expressing their frustrations with trouble gaining visibility and immediately people went to the usual dog-pilling so i'm once again forced to wonder what the heck is wrong with creative communities and creative audiences that this cycle keeps going on and on and on

and to make a little side note i usually just ignore this kind of thing especially after happening upon this post from tumblr

but it's like....really hard not to just get annoyed and wonder whats wrong with people (i mean the issue in this case is probably that it's twitter and folks are constantly encouraged to get into petty arguments and fighting but still it's...redundant =_= )

that's like as i'm typing this i realize i could go into several more paragraphs about whole demographics actively being suppressed by certain social media but unfortunately i know that THIS site isn't ready for /that/ discussion

also i'm only half looking for replies to this coz a part of me wonders if anyone else feels the same but this was mostly to just get frustrations about social media and humans off my chest =v=;;

[river121693]

yeah. I was promoted on Webtoon's Hidden Gem section last year, and while I had a significant growth, I noticed that a few of the other comics had much more growth than I did. I asked the Webtoon discord about it and how I can get better engagement during this opportunity, and got a bunch of people telling me I shouldn't compare myself to others lol. Like, I get it-- my genre, niche, and the way I intentionally write my story might not "grab" as many readers as possible, but there are plenty of things relating to skills and promotions that I could learn from looking at others.

I don't even know why "don't put your worth i engagement" and "urg I need to find better ways to promote" have to contradict one another. One can be perfectly happy with making their comic while also be frustrated with lack of engagements/ the way the engagement system works.

[AmazementComics]

Yeah I get you. Too often I hear “Your worth doesn't need to be based on anything external”. But I do think the more we base our value on our wealth, artistic talent, attractiveness etc. the more shallow our self-esteem is.

When I first started on Tapas, I would often compare my work to that of others doing something similar to what I was doing, and yet, they were doing much much better, it didn’t make sense. It probably never will, but this field is full of people who second-guess themselves AND contradict themselves. To that I would say not to think so hard about it. It is what it is. Artist shouldn’t be basing their or YOUR worth on something competitive, because even if you’re in the top 1% of a category as a hobbyist or for a profession, you’re still losing to the top .1%.

[river121693]

Also, similar to that tumblr response, author are entitled to reader's support to a certain degree. Artists arent here to make shit for free. We need to eat. The current webcomic system is really lopsided against artists as it is. If any readers' lives are made better by our work, they need to support us.

[thepenmonster1]

I find that when people give you advice on the internet it's meant for themselves, not you. So they speak the truth they're struggling with to you. But they focus on that one aspect instead of the far more reaching problem that the internet is being run by wealthy parasites who have bamboozled everyone into thinking working for free is a good thing.

So I don't think these are contradictions at all as they're all true in some way at some point. The system is designed that way.

[TheLemmaLlama]

In general, it's hella annoying when people say "I'm frustrated about X" and the response is "you're being entited, whiny etc etc". The world would be a better place if people just stopped making accusations and uncharitable assumptions about other people's intentions.

"I want this, and am frustrated about not getting it" is not the same as "I'm entitled to this, and it's your fault I'm not getting it".

Admittedly I do kind of relate to the other side, as I do sometimes feel guilt-tripped when other artists vent about not getting much engagement as I'm not great at giving meaningful engagement myself. But I NEVER accuse them of being entitled; even if they've phrased things a bit more aggressively so the cause for my feelings aren't 100% on my end, I'm a crappy communicator myself sometimes and undoubtedly came across as entitled/attacking others when I've vented, and the last thing I needed in those situations was accusations of deliberately guilt-tripping others for not giving me something I think I'm entitled to.

I do also wonder if it's less artists contradicting themselves and more there are artists with different opinions, but they are part of the same community, so it looks like the community is contradicting itself even though the individuals within it have self-consistent opinions? I have seen contradictory comments from the exact same person before myself, so artists contradicting themselves certainly exist; I'm just not sure how much of this is due to them

[Nugtown]

I know the comic you're talking about and he was tossing people like those who do nsfw art under the bus, as if they also do not work to find viewers and engagement. It's easy to see how people would get ticked off. The knee jerk reactions come from the authors vindictive bitterness, I feel that if you do not carry yourself with respect to others people will not look at you in a nice way. No one gets their freshly published book on a silver platter, unless you are a scrupulous individual hiring a team on his fathers money, and plagarizing art haha.

In the end it doesn't matter what we as comic artists think is deserved of us, for example, I feel my work is deserving too, it has been expressed to me and I believe in it. But it doesn't get much love from others as it does from me, and the disparity between creators and audience will always exist. They're diners, not chefs. And the sad fact of the matter is some guy will just order the chicken tenders because that's what he knows, not the wagyu tataki that will blow his mind.

I can empathize with the guy. It can be cruel to work hard on our craft and not even recieve one person's button click. But you'll die sooner trying to make the earth spin the other way.

[smokesalty]

Yup, I agree!

I know for me personally, I'm always looking for ways to grow my platform and gain new readers because I want more people to read my work, and I don't think there's anything wrong with that! Looking to what other successful people are doing, comparing your approach and such isn't bad in my opinion.

While yes, no one is owed likes or engagement, there's nothing wrong with looking for that, and I understand people when they feel frustrated about not having that. Most people are looking for engagement from people who genuinely like their work, not under the mindset that anyone "owes" them anything.

I'd say there's nothing wrong with being motivated by engagement- hell, it motivates me to know that I'm sharing my story to people who care about my work and want to see more of it. I reckon it shouldn't be the only motivation for creating things, but I think it's fine to feel upset about it without being dogpiled on.

[DualDragons]

Ah yes I saw the comic on Twitter. I can understand their frustration but lashing out is rarely a sound strategy. The thing ended up getting quite some engagement in the end but not in the positive kind. If people follow them now it'll be for the drama and not their art

Art is a subject that is overcrowded on every big site. It's gonna be hard to stand out especially as a beginner, not to mention any algorithms that might favour the bigger artists. You gotta understand that and think in the long term. If you want instant gratification (likes/comments/shares a la retweets) for your work then you are gonna be disappointed.

The upside to so many artists is that there are a lot of people to learn from and talk to. That doesn't mean you need to stalk them and barrage their dm's of course, but interacting with people helps. Maybe they see something you don't see in your art for example. And of course it can't hurt to make friends and get in or create a bit of a community. It doesn't even have to be strictly art you talk about, it can be about games or shows as well. Maybe you can make art for a show or game you really love. Do art for the things and people you like, but really do it for yourself.

[VibrantFox]

just wanted to chime in and say thanks to those who responded to/acnkowledged this (was not expecting tbh) but i appreciate the given perspectives ^^ a few points

1. absolutely agree with folks who point out the big flaw in throwing follow creatives under the bus coz it's not just a bad look it's just wrong

2. i think the reply that mentioned how sometimes it's less and individual and more the collective i think that's where my confusion or frustrations (tho it's less mad more disappointed i guess) coz the collective says one thing then another and then does another so i guess thats why i kind of stick to my lil bubble and float along

3. i don't think i've had to go thru the self worth struggle in a while thanks to just specific mindset changes so that wasn't really a concern of mine but more a general observation on stuff i've seen

similarly i think there's just this fatigue i have specifically relating to the internet arguments or instances of people (in a very general sense) coming together purely to dog on one person (sometimes i think it's warranted but i feel like there could be other ways to handle certain things but "other topics for other times" n all that)

uh 4...5? lost track but like overall mostly agree with a lot of the replies and thanks for letting me shout to a not so void

edit: also adding usually i just don't bother to look at a lot of things going on online coz i get overwhelmed or annoyed a little too easily in certain instances and that my best solutions had been kind of perching out waiting for fires to chill and to just not participate in too much this was just one fluke of me having an "enough is enough"/"what gives" moment but uh yeah above points still stand

[darthmongoose]

It's a whole complicated mess and honestly... most people have absolutely no idea what they're doing, including a lot of very popular people, but people like to give advice, whether out of a genuine desire to help others or because giving advice and putting out tutorials is a good way to appear as an "authority" on your subject and a good marketing technique... and obviously people want advice... And so you get a lot of people giving incredibly unhelpful advice.

Because there are essentially two kinds of people who build an audience in current webcomics, and chances are most of both groups will struggle to give you effective advice.

Group 1: People who simply made a fairly polished comic that's easy to read on a phone by drawing it and presenting it in a way similar to comics they like (which were optimised for mobile) and in a genre they like and it blew up... because the genre they like is something like sexy BL or Villainess Isekai. If you ask these people "how do I succeed on Tapas?" they'll just tell you "Have you tried posting on social media and updating regularly?" and make you want to scream, "NO S***, SHERLOCK, yes I tried that!" but they're seriously trying to give good advice... that's literally what worked for them, and they've never experienced trying to sell a comic that isn't perfectly on-trend or had any struggle finding where their audience is.

Group 2: People who worked their arses off learning design and marketing. They carefully planned their comic's brand, they probably do stuff a company would do like having brand colours and fonts and think about the "tone of voice" to make sure all their marketing materials stick to it. They may well post regularly and try different campaigns across multiple social media. They'll put themselves forward for every possible event and award they can. They probably planned how to make their comic look good and read well on Tapas very deliberately by doing research, agonising over their font choices and how their opening is paced. This group will technically give you good advice... but it's really not short and punchy. "Post some memes now and then!" is much more fun and immediately actionable than, "go and read some professional books on typography and branding" or "look up comp titles and research their marketing techniques and which ones got the post hits then try to reverse-engineer it"

As a group 2-er, I know I can tell people to improve their comic's typography and readability on a phone, or try to target their marketing towards fans of works with a similar vibe til I pass out and the vast majority of people won't listen... because that kind of "try hard" "sellout" attitude isn't as fun or cool as the, "make what you feel! Post funny memes about your OCs on social media sometimes!" advice that the group 1s will give... but if, like me, you're not somebody who by pure chance happens to be drawing in a perfectly on-trend style, format and genre, and if you're in a group that gets sidelined by media... you have to. It sucks! It actually really sucks and feels really fake or annoying or even selfish or greedy, but that's what's involved, just pure try-hard grind and always saying "Ooh! ME! ME!" at opportunities.

But discussing this stuff is a really easy way to tread on people's toes. Group 1 people don't want to be told they're only popular because they happened to make work in a popular style/genre/format... because they're not, they're usually making something very polished too! And Group 2 people don't want to be told their work isn't very good and they only got popular through marketing the crap out of it...because they didn't, they worked really hard to make their work entertaining and attractive! And neither group wants to be told that comics are basically a lottery and they only got popular through luck, because obviously almost any kind of comic involves a lot of hard work and it can come across very dismissive. So sometimes people who bring up these feelings just really tick off either other creators, or the people who want to stick up for other creators... and then you get the people who just want to be righteously angry...and you get a dogpile.

[jgshadow]

Yep, I feel you. I used to tell myself that it doesn't matter if I don't get engagements but the thing is, it feels like toxic positivity if I did. Like I'm giving an excuse just because I didn't get noticed. The moment you get low engagement, people will tell you that likes and comments don't matter as long as you're doing what you love. BUT at the same time, engagement is one of the things why artists do what they love. We love getting engagements from people. Yes, people are not entitled to engage with the content but artists are valid to show their frustration too.

On a side note, that's why I leave comments on content I really like as much as I can to show support to the creator. Once comment can make a difference on a person's day and motivation

[NellieVP318]

I'll admit. There are times where I don't care too much about engagement but, I'm not gonna lie there are times where I do like get noticed.

I do think the hard things that most creators won't admit there is no 100% full proof way to get better engagement while creating content. It's all based on luck and what's the site's algorithm wants IMO. Add in on what the public may like or what's popular which makes engagement more confusing for creators. It really messes with your mind a bit.

[DokiDokiTsuna]

I'm gonna play devil's advocate for a bit-- I think the reasons people tend to react negatively to these kinds of posts are as follows:

1] They do nothing to help your situation (if anything they'll make it worse). Your followers who see it will feel bad-- they'll think the little support they DO give you ultimately doesn't mean anything. People who are considering following you will feel bad-- they'll feel guilted into following you, and/or worry that you'll see them as a 'pity follower' and not care about your support either in the long run.
And people who aren't considering following you will just think you're a whiny loser (and to an extent, feel justified in ignoring you). =T

2] 'Wanting attention and not being able to get it' is seen as a capital social sin in any context, and a personal failing that no one should help you with-- you should either deal with it by yourself or quietly accept your fate. Most people are conditioned to try to shut down that kind of vulnerability on sight.

...And there you have it.

There's only one conceivable benefit to making a vent post like that-- catharsis for other artists who are in the same boat. ^^; Unfortunately, Point #2 makes that unlikely in many cases...the few artists who do approach will usually be the MOST frustrated, depressed, angry artists in the vicinity, who will take the opportunity to ALSO vent about their experiences. Add this to Points 1 and 2 and you end up creating a bonfire of ugly feelings of every kind. And Twitter algorithms will only serve to stoke the flames. ^^;;;

It's not that I think this kind of thing shouldn't be talked about, though. Tbh I think the Tumblr posts you quoted have the right idea-- the issue is with fans, right? So talk to them, tell THEM what they should do to support the creators they love.

Saying "people tend to stop creating when they feel like they're being ignored" is simply a true statement, one that people will be less likely to ridicule than, say, an extremely meme-able vent comic.
I don't mean to victim-blame (seriously though, this is probably the worst possible outcome for the poor OP ), I'm just saying...when you approach a sensitive topic, your best bet is to go straight to the people you want action from, explain the problem factually, and then tell them how they can fix it. Anything else can easily turn into a circus.

[RedLenai]

I personally am the type that mentions to others to don't Get Obsessed with engagement, mostly when they type it as a frustration thing which is not wrong we all felt that way, but at the same time we need to stay healthy, if they are the type to demand and claim it's others fault X thing then yes, I'l tell them to stop complaining because guilt tripping and complainig works to a certain extent but at the same time makes you look bad at other people's eyes... especially if you complain more than once, it's easy to be seen as an attention seeker, so it's important how to phrase things.

I try to share the advice to those two types of perople, share them what I personally do, or what other people does, the first type is willing to try while the second just expects you to tell them some kind of secret and that you swear whatever you suggest will work 100%. Be it sharing in one hundred places, be it making extra content, to engage with the public, creating memes or jokes that are trendy at the moment, etc. To try whatever is there and see what works, because nowadays with algorithms, shadow bans, competitiveness, people constantly posting, you just don't know what may pull the trick. But again, don't get obsessed because you're only going to exhaust yourself, getting obsessed is totally different from trying (Which I've noticed, some people tend to merge together and basically believe you're telling them to NOT try anything at all)

But at the same time I want to mention that I notice the following, in this time and year, people don't care about engaging too much, they don't care about typing what they think, like it used to happen back in 2014 or prior years. I can see it as well between artists, and I don't deny it, I don't interact much with fellow creators or their works either, mostly because I feel tired and the only thing I want to do is disconnect from anything comic related, not their fault.
Nowadays what seems to be the engagement is liking and then if the option is there and it's automatic, without so many steps, share/reblog/retweet. It's easier to heart react and call it a day, you don't have to think about the chapter that you just read in less than 5 minutes, you don't want to prove the author that you didn't take your time to process the information, you'll do it as you continue with your day or you're just busy or lazy, there could be so many reasons.

[rajillustration]

I think it's an issue where the polar opposites are not a great place to be, it's a nuanced situation that is entirely situational. There will be times in your life that you must get more engagement or you must stop creating, and then there are other times where you have to recognize you won't learn to level up your craft better if you don't put on the blinders and stop marketing so you can spend time creating. It's not a one size fits all for anyone.

It's also important to be honest about the current state of the industry. The chance your comic will be seen is pretty low, and most of the time that I see people very upset about their views and their follows, is because they're new to the industry, and they don't realize that their slow growth is normal. They think that everyone just starts posting and if you don't get big right out of the gate, then you have to throw everything out and delete your comic.

Which sounds like an exaggeration but I see kids do that all the time! I once saw a video on youtube where someone was like "If you don't get 2000 followers within a few months you won't get promoted on Webtoon, so delete and start over" and kids were linking it asking "Oh, is this true?" because they don't know better and we had to say "not in any universe.".

But it is a problem when we try and lay blame on either the audience or the author. There's no blame there, it's entirely on the services we are using which push us into putting all this emphasis on follower count when like--what's the point of it? Like do I get ad revenue from follower count? Yes I get like 2 cents. Do I get sponsorships from follower count? No, I'm an artist. Do my followers even see all of my posts? Nope, because of the mysterious algorithm that is constantly changing, purposefully, so we never find out how it works. Saw an interesting video a marketing professional said about tik tok that mentioned that our feeds have so much sponsered content, that it probably won't matter in the future if you follow anyone at all. A wild thought, but I can see it.

And, when we "do things for the love" entirely, then we put ourselves in a position where we can be easily taken advantage of. Yet, I think you should do something because you love it, just make sure to set your boundaries so you don't overdo it and leave people with this expectation that you are some sort of free art machine. Again, the polarized of any platitude is probably not great.

And like when I saw this whole discussion go down on twitter I didn't even want to touch it with a 10 foot pole. Twitter is just the worst environment for the discussion, like you mentioned.

[LCT_m_a_d]

Venting about low engagement with art,
generates more engagement than posts sharing art.

[powerplantanimations]

"HELP I'M STABBED AND I NEED HELP!"
"Lol put a band-aid or somethin'"

Jk. But yeah I get what you mean... although I was put in a weird situation where when I did stuff like that I.... actually followed people's advice who respond like that and now I'm.... where I am now....

I don't know if I should say "Hey, maybe these comments work" because of my OCD that makes me double down on what people say to an unhealthy degree where I work myself to the bone to get what I want. Like they're nothing comments to other people but for me it's like "OH GOD IS THAT THE PROBLEM!??! I GOTTA SPEND HOURS FIGURING THIS STUFF OUT!!!!".

I will say they are irritating and you can just... I dunno TELL them stuff you learned to give the little guy more help.

[Nugtown]

That it does, does that mean people will be interested in your work?
Absolutely not. Notoriety doesn't breed positive attention, it just makes you something fun to laugh at.

[NickRowler]

I did see the comic in question and I can understand why some people were upset by it but I also think other people totally misunderstood what it was saying.

It reminded me a bit of this meme.

But I also feel it wasn’t as mean spirited as this meme. I get the feeling the OP was frustrated with Twitter often being more focused on hashtag trends and gossip over art sharing. And sometimes the art that does get footing is usually fanart, especially NSFW fanart or art tied to a trend. I have seen people be critical about this aspect of Twitter for years. Sites like DeviantArt or even Tumblr were much better suited for art sharing, yet everyone jumped ship because it’s Twitter and EVERYONE is on Twitter.

However, I have seen overtime that artists on Twitter eventually evolve into focusing more on talking about gossip, hashtag trends, giving hot takes, etc. as opposed to mainly focusing on posting their art. I noticed people will plug their art in a Tweet talking about politics that has people arguing under it. It is so bizarre. I hate Twitter.