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JoshRaed
Jul '23

I was just confused because a lot of people just show me the wheel with no context and then i’m like, “How is my protagonist supposed to pay a hefty price for bringing his boyfriend to a party?”

Thanks for clearing it up.

The thing is the main character has had this story in his head since before the dark lord was around, and in the present the dark lord is just a part of his life now.

I think the issue was counting the brief prologue backstory as a plot point. Like the stories real start is when he’s fighting the shadow creature, and his internal and external conflicts are established. So… how do I make the day in the life sequence fit together into the cause and effect plot stuff? In my experience the day in the life part of the story is mostly just things happening, things that don’t directly lead to each other.

Emmet in the lego movie gets up, then reads the instructions, then watches propaganda, then goes to work, then gets separated from the group. The first moment of “so” is that he meets wyldstyle but she leaves so he follows her. Before that it’s all “then” and “and” connectors.

Is it acceptable plotting? Or did I seriously miss something about the lego movie?

Lensing
Jul '23

"Heiroe is told he's the chosen one by his king dad but he's not, "
How does he find out that he is not the chosen one?
Why does his dad think he is the chosen one?
Why does Heiroe want to be the chosen one?
Does he want to be the chosen one?
Does he think he is the chosen one?
Why does Heiroe want to save the world?
What does his sister have to do with saving the world or the story?

"Heiroe tries to take Nobody's powers but can't.
Electra helps him fake his powers."

Why?

HGohwell
Jul '23
JoshRaed

Ok, I think I get what you're struggling with there. For a start, Emmet probably has his own internal logic. The logic of what we do things doesn't always work in order, in fact it often works backwards. Plot overall should follow "action then consequence" but people tend to work in "preparation then action". Think about any human's morning routine, they are going to work so they do these things. Emmet does these things so he can go to work. But, those are also smaller scenes, not plot points. It would be much more accurate from a plot perspective to say Emmet was living a normal life until which is also perfectly valid. Therefore and so are not the only connections, but they make it clear that one thing is connected to another. A character brushing their teeth doesn't need to impact the plot, nor some greater reason to do so, but a character doing something like killing someone probably does.

JoshRaed
Jul '23

Sorry, this was actually an outline for only me to read and I didn’t realize it was incomprehensible to someone without the ideas in their head.

He doesn’t realize it until some point in season two, spending half the series in denial. But he’s kind of known it for years ever since it became clear that his inability to use the chosen one’s powers was going to continue to be a problem in his life.

Because he thinks being important and of royal blood means his son is 100 percent going to be the magical savior of society.

It’s what has been impressed on him his whole life as who he is supposed to be.

Because his dad, who is a king and also kind of perceived as a Diety, told him he was his entire life, to the point that it largely defines who he is.

Because his whole life he’s been made to feel guilty for every bad thing that happens. Every new death to the war was one he could have prevented but didn’t. And he is encouraged by the rest of the world to see it that way.

She’s also saving the world, and is a spy for the rebellion against her dad the king. And their dynamic is a big part of his character development.

He tries because he genuinely thinks that Nobody having chosen one powers is a mistake.

Electra helps him fake his powers because she wants to put an end to the Dark Zone and the Chosen Wads is her way of doing it, so she’s helping him keep up the farce that he is the chosen one.

JoshRaed
Jul '23
HGohwell

So is there a way to establish important things at the start in a way that follows a cause and effect like “Because of this thing, this other thing happened?” and is it okay if it doesn’t?

darthmongoose
Jul '23

In Save the Cat! There's a bit of detail on this setup beat, where it's suggested you show the character's life, and illustrate what's lacking in it, by showing the protagonist at work, at rest and at play. Lego movie follows the beats of "Save the Cat!" very closely.

So rather than thinking of this setup as a bunch of scenes lacking a "therefore", it's better to think of it almost more like a montage showing Emmett's conformist life where he doesn't quite fit in.

HGohwell
Jul '23
JoshRaed

As a general rule, cause and effect keeps the story ground. Something that comes out of nowhere for no reason is generally considered a plot contrivance or deus ex machina. Worlds general work on cause and effect, logical consistency, you know? However, plot and narrative can be different. For instance, if you're telling a non-linear plot, it might not be presented as action then consequence. You might see the consequence before the action, but it will still have been an action then a consequence. In the same way prologues about who the world was created don't necessarily lead directly to the plot, but will have somehow affected it.

And again, it's things like overall plot structure more than scene to scene. Things like LOTR, the prolgoue doesn't directly lead to the next scene. It's not because the ring wasn't destroyed so we can have a party . It's because the ring was not destroyed, the ring is in Bilbo's possession so it can be passed on so it can be destroyed.

moontokkym
Jul '23
1
JoshRaed

"Most stories don't have that kind of a moment" They do. The reason it happens over and over again is because the price they pay for getting what they want will change what they want. It happens a lot, gaining importance until the final act where they're sure they want this thing and they get it.

For the "returning to what is familiar to them" it's similar to the return home in the hero's journey. It's used to highlight how far the character's come because back with a familiar élément you can contrast to see what's changed. Zuko does go back to the fire nation that's been his home for most of his life, but changes it for the better. Shrek goes back to the swamp with friends, etc...

I think instead of just looking at the craft tips you're given and questioning them on the surface, try understanding what those tips are getting at. Usually craft tips are giving you some slightly easier to grasp examples of using contrast to highlight change, creating conflict to get tension in the story, give readers a reason to feel something about your characters, etc...

The specifics of craft book structure will not apply to every story, but the spirit will, so you need to work to understand the spirit of the tip and apply it to your story.

To apply the therefore/but idea to what you've said you need to boil down to core motivations and essentials.

  • Heiroe is told a fundalental lie that his life has a purpose (presumably to kill Bad guy) by the king who he trusts

SO

  • He mistrusts his family and other people generally and feels a loss of purpose. (Feeling bad for everything done wrong doesn't immediately track with feeling betrayed).

BUT

  • BIG BAD that he thought he was supposed to beat is making people suffer

SO

  • He finds a new purpose in life to find the "real chosen one"

SO

  • He has to learn to trust others because this is a task he can't do alone

SO

  • While growing as a person he gains new friends and New values in his life and no longer feels guilt for not achieving the King's impossible standards

SO

  • With the help of the team he finds the actual chosen one (what he wanted)

BUT

  • Chosen one doesn't want to do it? / Turns out Heiroe was rhe chosen one all along? / Finding the chosen one reawakens some jealousy or mental anguish from the King's betrayal? →MORE CONFLICT

SO

  • The team have to find a way to convince the chosen one to come with them / get Heiroe to be good enough to fight big bad / get chosen one where he needs to go while dealing with Heiroe's emotional crisis

Etc etc ..

Side-note but IMO this seems like a parody name even when I read your first few pages... Especially as you've got a chosen one story which are very overused tropes therefore they're often used for laughs and genre satire. Like yeah he's the heir and the hero but it seems really on the nose, like if a secretly traitor character was called Liar McBad. The names of all the characters all come in to make the story feel really generic. I get some japanese anime do this but it's usually in a foreign language for the intended primary audience and also actually gags (Dragon ball comes to mind). Aang is not called "Saayvior" and Zuko isn't called "Firebad".

I accidentally hit send half way through don't mind me

Lensing
Jul '23
JoshRaed

I would simplify it and first try to focus on one character.
Heiroe or Nobody.
And tell the story from that perspective with minimum other characters
and then build the story from that.
And then write a summary of the story with understandable goals
with a plot that makes sense.

You can still add the other characters but I think you need a good
fundamental story that makes sense and works

NickRowler
Jul '23

I think you are somewhat missing the deeper meaning of what the Lego Movie is about. The movie is told from the perspective of a child who is unhappy with his father’s strict rules. The song “Everything is Awesome” is a song a kid would sing to themselves while they play. Emmet is an extension of the child, and represents his struggle to play within the premade Lego sets his father set up. While Wyldstyle represents the concept of creativity and not worrying about strict structure when playing with Legos. A lot of this is paralleled with a “Chosen One” narrative but the story has more depth than that.

JoshRaed
Jul '23

So the way it’s described it feels like this moment isn’t even something you make happen, it’s just something that probably will happen to your story anyway. Like how specifically do I use it to improve my story? It doesn’t seem like any of this stuff was stuff I even had to add because it seems to be all there somewhere.

Which parts of the story I described are the cliche parts?

JoshRaed
Jul '23

I understand that stuff. I just don’t see how it relates to this conversation.

KevinReijnders
Jul '23
JoshRaed

There's a diference between a characters want and need. A want is what a character thinks they need, but generally a basic heroes journey will have a character evolve to the point where they realise they don't need their want and that's when they achieve their need.

Take the latest Puss in Boots movie. Goldilocks wants the wishing star to wish her family back. Everything she does is in purpose of that single goal, but in the end she realized she already had a family with the 3 bears. She needed to accept she already had what she wanted.

Same with Puss, he wanted more lives to he a courageous hero again, bu he needed to learn courage comes from facing fear, not the lack of it

JoshRaed
Jul '23

I know that, and I don't see how it connects to what I said.

HGohwell
Jul '23

Ok, so I think all this is getting sorta carried away from the main point.

Structure, when it comes down to it is, basically beginning, middle and end (this also applies to scenes in general but that's too minute). How much goes to each is dependant on your story's genre and style and conventions. Generally, your beginning and end should be shorter. If you had to put a ratio on it, something like 1st quarter, set up/beginning, 2nd and 3rd quarter middle and last quarter end. You 2nd quarter should be build up and adventure and the 3rd quarter should be all build up to your climax, and then your last quarter would be recovery and wrap up. How uneven these quarters are, of if there aren't extra bits, depends on the specific set up of your story. Some will skip almost everything after the climax, some will go on forever, some will skip straight to the build up and ignore a slower "normalcy" type opening. This is structure.

When talking about flow, that's a lot more about presentation and how these things connect to each other and if you will present them connected to each other. And much of that is about execution. Consider this like the scene to scene, shot to shot editing in the film. You don't notice when it's good, but you do notice when it's jarring (hopefully because it was intended to be and not by accident).

22 days later
JoshRaed
Aug '23

I am aware of that fact. The structure here is tied heavily to the growth of the characters, and their roles in this story. The first two chapters minimize the other characters roles just to make it so you understand the protagonist from the very beginning, and each chapter exists to in some way develop the characters and their problems and their relationships.

JoshRaed
Aug '23

I don't know. It just happened. I'm actually laughing as I type this for some reason. Something about this whole situation is just really funny to me.

NickRowler
Aug '23

Are you actually interested in advice or are you just a troll? It doesn’t seem like you are actually interested in writing. It comes off like you want to be needy for the sake of needy.

You are asking people to respond to posts they made a month ago. Have you actually sat down to draw or write anything new? It’s hard for people to give you new advice if you are not really taking the effort to make new stuff.