That isn't what I'm asking, though. It's "If I buy $100 in Ink and give it to an artist, how much will it show before fees are taken out?"
It's my question! I've said it several times. You keep trying to make it something different and don't want to consider a different option that what you've decided on.
I think answering my question in detail (like, step by step, at which point which fee is taken out, at which point is the subtotal displayed in revenue vs available, etc) should answer that one?
EDIT: Thing is, I think "fees are taken out" is not a single step. There's at least two steps involved.
Why are you changing my question? I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT AFTER FEES! THIS ISN'T ABOUT CASHING OUT!
This is about the value of Ink while it is STILL IN THE SYSTEM. I buy ink. I give Ink. Is it still valued the same? No fees involved at this stage.
Supposedly there's no fees taken out when Buyer purchases ink? Or is that not right, because likely the money has to go through some Third Party service, so some fee should apply to process it.
Iām sorry. But the two taxations fee App at 30% and Web at 15% is confusing me. Where do they fit in before/after the Tapas fee at 15%
OKAY THEN
I go and make a new debate about taxations then.
Because it has nothing to do with the Ink you buy.
Sorry for the misunderstanding.
That's part of what I'm trying to figure out. No matter what, when you buy stuff it's a flat rate and you aren't charged any fees. And typically companies like this will instead pay credit card processors based on their plans, which is probably part of what the Tapas fees are on the other end. But that is typically considered the cost of doing business.
My concern here is that Ink seems to drastically change value when it changes hands, before any fees are applied.
Okay so Iām not here to rant or start a war.
I have surfed the forum and it seems this debate is the same year after year.
The misunderstanding might be that some believe that the App/Web fee is paid before you receive your value of the ink.
Your received amount might already have been altered depending where it came from.
Then you pay the Tapas share fee.
Therefor. Answering you concern depends on.
Are the taxation fee paid before you even receive your amount?
Maybe it's a good idea to wait and get an explanation from Michael or another staff member? There seems to be a lot of confusion that could be resolved if it came straight from the source.
Ya... Can we start this thing over because i feel bad now that I have destroying the original question with all my confusing.
Sorry
I was content to wait, but I doubt I will get an answer now that people have muddied the waters with their own interpretation of what I'm trying to figure out.
It took me a minute to wrap my head around the question at hand after the caps/yelling started emerging (I thought the question at hand was closer to what jens/keii were pointing out) but I see now-
like I recently got a support of 100 ink and the before-fees amount is $0.08 as opposed to the $0.12/13 that one would expect from the calculation in the OP. However looking at the purchase options above the $2 one, you start getting that "extra" ink, the 4,000+1,000 for $5 for example, and so on. Looking at some of those, the value of the ink gets closer to what we actually see.
$5/5,000 = .001
$10/10,500 = .0009
$20/22,500 = .00088
$50/60,000 = .00083
(and the one-time offer, $2/2,400 = .00083 as well)
So it seems the real value of ink is that .0008 value, as we can see in the several examples provided. But the purchaser eats some sort of penalty when buying smaller amounts. The way the shop presents it is like you're getting a % extra ink for your purchase, but I guess really you're actually just approaching the true value instead. Good to know prior to Inksgiving I guess- I think last time I just bought several of the mid-tier options lol
@michaelson has already been tagged. I am confident you'll receive an answer.
But is that how it's counted? Is that just "extra" or is it "bonus" ink? Which according to the purchase page, "bonus" ink can only be used in specific circumstances.
Either way, it's not a small penalty when you're dealing in smaller amounts. If you just buy $2 worth of Ink, it's a penalty of 36% which I feel the person making the purchase should be aware of.
I much more prefer straight-across monetary transactions, to be honest. That's how I ended up here. Whether or not I put in $2 or $200 into a system, I expect a similar amount to come out the other end. Not this weird conversion we seem to have.
I can say with confidence that it's actual Extra and not the "bonus ink", as I've purchased ink for use in the previous 2 Inksgiving events from the higher tiers, and given it all away to people (Bonus ink is weird and can only be used for premium and also expires I think?)
But yeah, I wasn't meaning to downplay it as a small amount: just laying down the hard numbers xD
the rest is conjecture on my part but I almost wonder if it's a result of the same currency being used for premium content and tipping... like maybe the purchase options were built with premium unlocks in mind and then the translation to how it works with support is wonky? Dunno. Even then it looks like premium comics are like 300 per episode? And none of the "base values" divide neatly into that so no clue haha.
That then raises another question: Why call it "4000 + 1000" for $5 and not just say it's 5000? Not to you, specifically, but in general.
It all feels a bit...shady. Because if at its base value Ink is indeed 1250 per $1, and Tapas is taking 15 or 30% (whether it was for support or ads)...what about the amount lost in the conversion? Sure, if I buy $50 worth of Ink, it translates penny for penny to the artist. But if I buy even just $20 worth, which results in 22,500 ink, for the artist that is $18. Tapas makes $2 off that one transaction before it takes its official cut.
One person doing that, it might be easy to shrug off. It's just 10%, right? But that scales.
At the "most popular" level of $10. That translates to 10,500 Ink which is $8.40 for the artist. It seems like less with just $1.60 going to Tapas. But that's now 16% of the total.
Give that's their most popular, let's say 5,000 people go for that option. Each one just puts in $10 to get that Ink for a total of $50,000. With a loss of 16% that's $8,000 that gets "lost" in the conversion.
This is all before that 15% of Tapas' official share or the fees based on where the Ink came from (mobile, web, etc).
So if they're already taking a sizeable chunk off the back end, why is it necessary to have this built-in "loss" on the front end?
From my understanding it's because that "1000" extra is specifically for Premium content, meaning 4000 can be spent on anything on the website, but that extra 1000 can only be spent on Premium content and nothing else ever.
That contradicts what @Rhonder just said.
But if this IS the case, Bonus ink would remove it from the pool of what it's worth when given in support, making all Ink purchased worth the same amount. Which loses 36% of its value when given for support.
The + (whatever value) ink in the "value packs" is not bonus ink, it can still be tipped to creators.
I think I can confirm that's not the case since I've spent that on tipping non-premium people before.
I've always just assumed the discrepancy between what you pay for the ink and the value it redeems to was a way of increasing Tapas' margins, along with the fee ĀÆ_(ć)_/ĀÆ
I'm not sure if I'm following everything perfectly here but as far as purchasing, 800 ink = $1. It was the community that figured out that in order to get as close to tipping a creator $1 (because of fees and such) you would need to need to tip them around 1200-1300 ink.
That's exactly the point I'm making. And it's concerning. If this is the case, it's a HUGE margin. They're taking anywhere from 4 to 36% then taking 15 or 30% at the end.
Yeah. Personally I've never been bothered by it because
a) They're a small company, they've gotta make money and idk what their various income streams actually look like so maybe the high margin here is important for them, who knows? Anyway I don't mind supporting Tapas too since I like the site.
b) tbh I feel like most of the value in most ink donations is just like "the spirit of giving" and accompanying warm fuzzies. Probably like 80-90% of tips are really small and it doesn't make much difference whether the creator gets $0.10 or $0.15. I don't mind if people supporting me think they're giving more than they actually are if that'll make them happier, and most creators probably care more about the gesture of appreciation than the monetary value of such small amounts too.
...but maybe I'm too sappy and nonchalant lol
Thank you, that's exactly what I was hunting for. $2M is definitely not a "small business." Doubly so when they have millions of users.
It would be one thing if Ink was just sort of something you earned through the site somehow. Which you CAN do, but it's only like 10 ink at a time. This is people putting in real money that they think is translating to real money for the artists. It doesn't give me warm fuzzies to know that Tapas pocketed 36% of some young, eager fan's money when they just wanted to show a little support to their favorite comics only to turn around and pocket an additional 15% when the artist asks to be paid.
I do think you're forgetting that the first 15-30% transaction fee does come out as soon as you make your purchase and it does not go to Tapas.
Tapas takes their share after the ink has been tipped.
Here's another thread where people were talking about this topic if you haven't seen it yet.
https://forums.tapas.io/t/tipping-fees-are-stupidly-high?source_topic_id=38519
I don't think it's fair to call Tapas anything but a small business. If Tapas is a "big business" then what is Webtoons? What is Amazon? An ultra big business? There are individual people in this world worth more than Tapas. Tapas has a single headquarters in SF that's honestly? Pretty small compared to all the businesses around it.
But also, I think you're finding such a big percentage is being "lost" because you're valuing the extra ink at the same amount as purchased ink. For all intents and purposes, the "extra" ink you get as a bonus for purchasing certain amounts is free ink, so wouldn't it make sense for that to be worth less when given to the artist? In the same way ink earned through ads seems to be worth less? (though I could be wrong on that last part). What does the lost percentage add up to calculating only the base ink?
Hey everyone,
Unfortunately, I'm having difficulty keeping up with this topic as there are already 71 responses and a variety of different talking points being addressed.
@colinmooredraws is there a specific question regarding the Ink-based transaction system that I can address?
Also, the 30% that Apple and Google take is an industry standard for app development as they are allowing us to use proprietary software to handle app-based transactions in a safe and secure method that readers trust. Plus, they are hosting our apps and promoting our apps on their respective stores. They're giving Tapas as well as the Tapas creator base access to readers we otherwise wouldn't have if we didn't host our apps on these store fronts.
The 15% operating fee that Tapas incorporates for Support and the 30% operating fee associated with ad revenue are meant to cover operational costs for Tapas to keep us running, to create new tools, and also to finance original stories to give creators more opportunities to pursue comic creation as a full time occupation. We're constantly re-investing our earnings back into the community to ensure that creators are given ample opportunity to make Tapas their home.
Thank you for your response.
This was my fear with the muddying of the question. It's not about the 15% that Tapas takes at the end.
There are a number of questions that I have on the matter of Ink:
My follow up of the sort of "conversion loss" that varies based on how much Ink is purchased by someone might change based on these answers. But it's still very concerning.
Iāll look into the mechanics of how exactly the transaction works and outline the flow to you tomorrow after I verify with our dev team (itās currently after hours for us).
As for the value of 1 ink - we donāt disclose this information as it does vary - some countries implement different systems that tax readers which impacts the overall unit cost.
I wouldnāt categorize those estimates as accurate or reflective of our revenue numbers. Those also do not factor in app performance (I believe).
As I'm not a math genius and pretty much getting confused with the numbers, here's some quote for you by other users that self calculated it :
This is back when support are called tipping and inks were called coins.
Further reading here. it is a massive thread so :
https://forums.tapas.io/t/tipping-is-here-youre-gunna-want-to-get-in-on-this/15547
I remember that michaelson (?) once replied that at some point, they need to pay the fee for sending the payout from their own pocket because of the difference in exchange value on PayPal, but I canāt find it now.maybe my memory just made it up, idk.
My reply wonāt help at anything I think, lol.
Michaelson literally replied here. Just above you.
Paypal's rate is 2.9% + 30 cents. The lowest on my spreadsheet was 4%. Everything I have done is based on USD so there is no exchange rate involved, beyond USD to Ink.
Tapas is already taking a 15% cut at the end on top of app or website processing fees. Which would more than cover Paypal's fees. Which are also taken by Paypal when the money goes into your account there. This is about the dramatic shifts in value from purchase to value in an artist's support account. Please see my spreadsheet posted above.
