Exactly. It's not just about that one specific cover being a big problem for the entire industry by itself, it's about how these situations are way too common. Using, say, that one cover as an example of what you mean is... just that, an example to easily use to show what you're talking about.
Wow! Thank you everybody for replying and discussing such a controversial topic! I love how I can learn a little bit of comic history and read up some interesting points! You guys are awesome! :))
Yes, I agree. This is an important topic that needs to be discussed, but too often gets unnecessarily heated and thus, avoided in the first place. And while it's obvious a number of us commenting are coming at this from opposite world views, I'm confident that in the end we all want essentially the same thing, which is more an more great stories with characters of all stripes.
Eh...no, not the same pose. Her butt in the air, full focus. His body crouched to the ground. I do find it odd that you don't see the difference here. I mean, this isn't just about whether or not she's sexualised. They simply do not have the same pose. They look very different. I don't know if you're a guy, girl or what, but in general, I find that men have a harder time seeing how this is demeaning, and I think it's because it's not demeaning to them - it's easier to tell others what to put up with when it's not something you personally have to put up with. And I actually had a link to someone replicating that pose showing how it is impossible for her to have her butt in the air like that because of how her legs are posed, but can't find it right now.
Yeah but...the way you see it is also in your head. Are you implying that I'm somehow less objective than you? Because there's no such thing as being objective. Everyone sees things based on our lived lives and experiences. That's why women tend to see this as more demeaning than men do. We have very different experiences when it comes to how we are used to see ourselves in the media. And the reason why people found this so odd is actually exactly what you just pointed out - she's climbing up the building, so why the ridiculous pose? It doesn't make any sense! Have her look normal!
Getting critiqued for your work comes with the territory. If you're working for DC or Marvel, you better be able to handle that. Especially of you belong to that part of the population that has the most chance of getting a job in this industry.
There is a very well written piece about this (it's not just about men writing about women characters, it's about white men writing about marginalised groups in general, but I think it's a great guide for anyone writing about other marginalised group - I'm white, and I for instance want to be able to write POC in an interesting, non-stereotypical way): http://www.themarysue.com/note-to-white-dudes/4
I recommend reading the whole thing but this is a short paragraph that I think is relevant to this discussion:
"Remember that just because people are expressing negative feelings about something you did – and hell, might even be *gasp angry about it – doesn’t mean they’re “chastising” you, or that it’s in any way personal. They are responding strongly, because it’s one small example of the many instances in which they’ve felt othered by pop culture, and they want these instances to become fewer and further between until they’re gone."*
And that was my point with what I wrote before. Women know what makes us feel sexualised and treated as lesser beings. Men sometimes just don't get it. That's why we're letting them know so they can do a better job. This might come out as harsh criticism sometimes, but again - if you want to improve, you've got to handle that criticism. See it as an opportunity to get to know your audience better, find out why what you did annoys your audience, and then improve. If people keep complaining about the same thing, then maybe it's about time to consider their complaints. If you're portraying a group of people you don't belong to, then the best way to know if you're doing a good job in portraying them is to listen to their feedback. This is pretty basic, it's the kind of audience research companies like Marvel and DC can afford to take the time to do.
Also, I recommend having a look at this blog: http://eschergirls.tumblr.com3
I'm going to have to disagree again. It think what you say is outright wrong, because the fact is that it's women who are drawn in ways that creators would never draw men. Take a look at The Hawkeye Initiative: http://thehawkeyeinitiative.com6
Here you get to see men portrayed like never before....like women. And this blog has gotten a lot of hate from VERY ANGRY men who are deeply offended that people dare draw their masculine man heroes in such ridiculous, feminine ways. But this is what it would look like if men were portrayed the way women are. But they're not. Because women are often drawn in ridiculous, sexualised ways that most creators would never even dream of drawing male characters in, because it would make them look emasculated.
If you want to take the stance that you don't care that women are portrayed in a more sexualised way, there's probably nothing I can do about that. But saying that it's not how it is is simply incorrect.
This is a report by the American Psychological Association (focusing mostly on how sexualisation of women and girls affect young/adolescent girls): http://www.apa.org/pi/women/programs/girls/report.aspx
Again, I recommend reading the whole thing, but here are some excerpts:
"Virtually every media form studied provides ample evidence of the sexualization of women, including television, music videos, music lyrics, movies, magazines, sports media, video games, the Internet and advertising (e.g., Gow, 1996; Grauerholz & King, 1997; Krassas, Blauwkamp,& Wesselink, 2001, 2003; Lin, 1997; Plous & Neptune, 1997; Vincent, 1989; Ward, 1995). Some studies have examined forms of media that are especially popular with children and adolescents, such as video games and teen-focused magazines.
In study after study, findings have indicated that women more often than men are portrayed in a sexual manner (e.g., dressed in revealing clothing, with bodily postures or facial expressions that imply sexual readiness) and are objectified (e.g., used as a decorative object, or as body parts rather than a whole person). In addition, a narrow (and unrealistic) standard of physical beauty is heavily emphasized. These are the models of femininity presented for young girls to study and emulate.
Psychology offers several theories to explain how the sexualization of girls and women could influence girls’ well-being. Ample evidence testing these theories indicates that sexualization has negative effects in a variety of domains, including cognitive functioning, physical and mental health, sexuality and attitudes and beliefs.
Although most of these studies have been conducted on women in late adolescence (i.e., college age), findings are likely to generalize to younger adolescents and to girls, who may be even more strongly affected because their sense of self is still being formed."
This is why I (and other women and girls) care so much about this, while men seem to...not always give a shit. Well, some do, and we love them for that! But many don't, and that's why we'd like to see more women creators working with the big names in mainstream media. They are more likely to care, and therefore more likely to create something that has a positive effect. It is documented that women and girls are sexualised more. It is documented that it has a negative effect on our mental and physical health. We just want to be able to consume mainstream entertainment and see ourselves portrayed as people.
No, it doesn't actually come with the territory. It is possible to choose differently. Again, this goes back to what I said earlier. If you put the right people to do the job, you don't need to have leg spreading and butts in the air. There are creators out there (both male and female) who manage to create comics with female characters without sexualising them. It is possible. I've seen examples of it, and some of these examples are doing really, really well, like MS Marvel.
Thank you for that. I read it all and believe I understand your viewpoints. In fact, I'm very well versed in the arguments and points you're making. A lot of those links I've actually already read/seen a number of times before. But, the thing is, I simply do not agree with almost all your points here, including the underlying bedrock of post-modern, gender politics, feminist theory upon which they're built, so to that end, I don't see any way in which we could possibly bridge that gap and come to a mutual understanding.
So not wanting to turn this thread into yet another internet debate on this issue, I guess I'll just take my leave for now, as dissecting each and every one of your points would take me a week, and the end result would only be you coming back to dissect mine, and round and round we'd go. We've each said our peace and think made our opinions clear.
@scythe Fair enough. Not gonna lie, I was hoping that at least the APA report on how these things in fact matter on a larger scale would make at least a small difference to you...but you have as much right to your point of view as I have mine, so i guess our mutual understanding would have to be that we agree to disagree. 
And yeah, this topic easily gets heated and I obviously care a lot about this. But it gets exhausting to keep discussing it at length, and like you said, it'd just be a lot of going back and forth since our opinions differ so fundamentally. Still, thank you for being respectful, I see a few things in my own reply I would've worded a little differently now because they came out harsher than they seemed when I wrote them, but all in all I hope I expressed myself in a somewhat decent manner (English isn't my native language, but you've probably noticed 
).
Uh, and the same thing I told Kamikaze goes for you too...I've fallen insanely behind on your comic....but come Christmas and I'll binge read my way up to the latest update!
I'm so happy to read this, because it's the opposite of the interactions I've had in the past with people who I disagree with on these matters. (Isn't Tapastic an awesome place?) Too often people can't seem to accept people with differing opinions without writing off that person altogether. To be honest, I didn't think you were overly harsh, but merely passionate, which again, I understand and empathise with. I have a young daughter, a wife, a sister, a mother, a stepmother, numerous female friends, acquaintances and colleagues who've all contributed in their own way into the man I am today, including helping to shape my views on things like gender, and the importance of getting things right. To that end, I feel it's my moral duty to speak up and state a case, as I'm sure you do too. And don't get me wrong, I'd love to continue discussing this stuff if it were face to face, but the forums are already a distraction from my drawing, albeit a fun one.
And like I said in response to Chocolate, I think we're probably all on the same side here, (meaning that we just want to see more stories with all kinds of people) even if we're coming at it from a different place and disagree on the minutia.
Oh, and thanks for the kind words about my comic, that's so nice to read.
This is a pretty standard porno pose if you discount the absurd and probably impossible positioning of her head. It's extremely difficult to imagine the artist wasn't using a reference from pornography when this image was being created. I think it would be a bit of a stretch to say that the artist who did this, who is famous for erotic art, didn't fully intend for this image to be sexually arousing. That doesn't seem to be the case with the spider-man.
Exactly this. When you apply certain traits to a male character in a story that is not about the protagonist's gender, very rarely will you ever get backlash from viewers who choose to correlate those traits with that protagonist's gender. When you do the same to a female protagonist (and while we're on the topic, characters with different sexual identities) you will get that backlash, even if in reality there is no correlation whatsoever.
That is awesome.
I understand your point, but I don't think you can apply that slant to what we currently see on tapastic. Sure, big buck stories from well-known writers have male protagonists because of those issues with female protagonists, but I think the backlash we see from those issues is the very reason tapastic writers want to include female leads. It can absolutely be done right and a lot of comics on this site are doing are setting a really good example. But this is a really small and sadly insignificant playing field to what we see in the popular world and the issues brought by including a female protagonist still influences readers when viewing those kinds of stories. It's a really sticky topic and it's a current issue for creators. Social justice warriors are making a mark on the creative influences of movies, video games, books, and comics. In 2015, it is still a minefield even for tapastic creators who are worried about what sort of message they might be sending about women/homosexuals/transpersons/disabled persons/etc just because their protagonist falls into that category and that will still affect what kind of story they end up writing.
Yes, we are starting to see momentum as far as female protagonists, especially on tapastic, but it will be a long time before people stop bringing up unwarranted correlations between the protagonist's identity and what message it might send to people who share that identity. Very rarely do I see a story about a character who is gay that isn't trying to send a SJW-themed message about being gay, because that sort of story is what attracts viewers into supporting it. How much support do you think you would see in a story about a nerdy plus-sized transgender gay Christian furry predator serial killer and their descent into madness, even if it was extremely well-written?
Whoa! I can't speak for all of humanity but I would be all in for that one! You need to start work on that story immediately!
Honestly, tapastic is the only forum in which I would participate in a discussion on this topic. And I've seen you around here quite a bit, so I already knew you weren't going to act like a douche bag just because someone disagrees with you
I think it's easy to demonise the person you're talking to when the discussion takes place online, so when people disagree with me, I just try to remember that I'm talking to another human being (it can be a little harder when that other person has the reaper as their avatar, haha XP). But like I said, its much easier when you feel like the other person is treating you respectfully (which I felt like you did). And in the end, I too hope to see the comic industry getting even better.
And yeah...the forum is definitely a distraction...and not just from my drawing - I should have fallen asleep three hours ago...I don't even write that much here, I mostly read other people's comments, and I still end up spending hours here somehow. Which is why I think I've said enough for now...gotta get some sleep....
No problem! Just keep up the good work 
I myself think this is also an important issue. When you look at comics that actually have female characters generally they are sexualized to a fault. I don't much mind it, but there is hardly any mainstream sexualization of male characters, most of what we see are power fantasies. I think drawing sexy dudes in itself is actually helping level the playing field, it give people who are attracted to men more content to enjoy.
Whoa, I'm gone for two nights and this whole thread appears with so many responses!
Anyway, I'll just speak from my own experiences writing and drawing. At my very earliest, when I started drawing, I was influenced by cartoons I watched, particularly Arthur, which has great characters of both sexes and anime such as Sailor Moon, Cardcaptors, and Pokemon and Digimon. So I would say I had a pretty good basis of strong female characters. When I began creating my own characters, I had a nice mix of boys and girls. Then as I got older, the friends I made at school made more of an impact. Especially in middle school and high school, I got along better with the guys because I shared more interests with them and found them more entertaining to interact with. I still had a core group of girl friends, but we connected on a different level. So during that time I had more male characters in my comics because they were humorous stories and I found my guy acquaintances damn funny.
Nowadays I'm more aware of the need for representation so I try to have female leads when I can. Tula is one of my favorite characters that I've designed so far and she's the lead for Demon House. I have many other stories in the works that also have female protagonists.
As for my other stories, the leads are male and I didn't figure out why until now as I skimmed through the thread. It's mainly because I don't want their weaknesses to be negatively associated with a female. In Erie Waters, Ian is sweet and naive; needless to say, there have been countless female characters that fit that, especially in anime.
For Heavy Horns (never mind that it's a guy x guy romance, because I could easily just switch their genders), both Andreas and Beau can be assholes, and if they were women, I'm sure people would cry "bitch".
This is why whenever I do write a female character, I have to try and make them as perfect as possible with their flaws being somewhat understandable to all sexes or even make their flaws charming.
I just can't damn my girls. :/
Also, I'm all for sexy men!
Hah this is such a wondefully civil thread. Pretty much all I was gonna say has been mentioned here one way or another. Except in webcomics i feel like its the opposite depending on what style you look into, but that might just be me. Harpy Gee, Gunnerkrig Court, Last Halloween are a few of my current favorites and all have female leads. While I definitely gravitate towards stories with female leads if only because its still kinda novel, I don''t really care one way or the other as long as the character is interesting in and of themselves.
Mainstream media just has issues with originality in general right now, they are less willing to take any chance on something that hasnt been tried and tested, and when they do they go in half baked most of the time. That being said progress is being made here and there, and online I feel like we have made great strides. Also the fact that people definitely criticize female characters more harshly scares a lot of perspective male writers from trying something new. Its both sides too, people wanting the female to be portrayed in a super specific way to better represent their gender. And of course the people who apparently aren't tired of seeing the same square jawed white dude save the day for the hundredth time.
Personally I do like writing female leads lately, mostly as a fresh change of pace. It helps detach myself a bit as well so I don't end up putting to much of myself into a character. I never go into the story with them being female or male as a trait that has any great meaning. In the end people just need to write what they feel should be written, not just what you know best exactly but what you want to express.
I met this one while going through writing excuses because I was bored:
It goes a bit around the subject, talking about repressenting females realistcally and popularity, cliches and such.
@thorbjornlyk Omfg, I LOVE Writing Excuses! Educational AND funny! And they cover everything you could possibly think of related to writing!
I've said more than enough on this topic, but I just had to share my love for WE ^^
@Vikiro_HopRegular - You've said what I was thinking while reading this post! I think that while a lot of mainstream, profit dependant media is still stuck with male leads and lone female characters who have an enforced, unnatural "spunkiness" out of fear or writing women with flaws and weaknesses, webcomics and indie comics are a bit of a haven for women and underrepresented sexualities and ethnicities. We don't have any folks at a network or publishers being gatekeepers, and I think that is part of the appeal of webcomics. It's good for creators too - was reading an article recently that pointed out that the UK Indie comics industry has an exact 50/50 gender split right now. That's wonderful news.
Urg, Yeah the 'cant be feminine' bugs me. Why can't a girl be feminine and be badass? Why does she need to be a dude to be a strong female character which defends the object!
To be honest I never really paid much mind to this topic because 90% of.web comics I read have female leads of different types.
No offence to the Americans in this forum, but there is this trend that I've noticed in American media where a "strong female" equals not having an iota of charm and being pissed off at everything all the time.
I could never understand what's so strong about not having human qualities.
Morrissey said it best when he said "It takes strength to be gentle and kind".
