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DokiDokiTsuna
May '19

Do you enjoy this dynamic, or use it often? Personally, I use it all the time; I think it's actually easier than having a villain who hates their hero. ^^

It's probably because I like creating villains who have fun with their work, and it's easier to give them that attitude when their relationship with the hero is fairly amicable- at the very least, they won't see them as a threat; merely a plaything~.

On the darker side, twisted love stories always hold a lot of juicy drama~. I like to try things that are slightly outside of the box...a villain who tries to cover for their attraction with excessive violence, for instance...or a villain who tries to strike an absurd balance between impressing the hero and actively destroying their life- not that they think the latter will lead to the former, but that they think they can have their cake and eat it, too.

Something I've been doing a lot lately is a sort of 'white knight' dynamic: the villain takes pride in the fact that they'd cross any line for their hero, and more often than not they really are trying to help them, but they do it in ways that mostly just cause harm: they straight-up murder people instead of trying to negotiate, and/or they restrain the hero and take action in their stead (sometimes in their name), believing that they know better, or that they're making some kind of noble sacrifice.

I don't normally do it with main antagonists, but I find it's a fun and reliable source of extra frustration when it comes to secondary antags (who are usually more hated anyway). It's interesting to have these characters around who are genuinely useful at some points and just out of control at others. They make you think, "gosh, this person could actually make a decent ally if they weren't so dang creepy." XD

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    May '19

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elyss
May '19

I have a character in my novel that isn't an outright antagonist but could very easily be seen as one and is, in many ways, a symptom of the problems that my main character faces.

praelia
May '19

I don't often write villains actually, but I think it would be fun to write one some time. I do agree that it's so twisted for villains to toy with protagonists like that. It's like playing with their food, haha.

And I think this is the difference between villain and antagonist. Villains are evil for the sake of being evil or just cause it's fun. While antagonists believe that what they do is justified.

elyss
May '19

I personally don't think antagonists automatically believe what they're doing is justified. Antagonist is just the anti of the protagonist. I don't think that makes the antagonists inherently evil, they could just be the protag's little brother who threw the main's favorite toy out the window because he thought it could fly

praelia
May '19

Agreed. Antagonists aren't inherently evil. Instead, they believe that they are the protagonist of their story.

When I said that what they're doing is justified, I was thinking more of where the antagonist believes that even though their actions hurt people, it is a lesser evil they must do in order to stop a bigger one. Kind of like a mom saying "I'm doing this for your own good!" to her child

elyss
May '19

That description sounds more like an antihero. An antihero is someone who does a lot a bad for what they believe to be right and good. Captain America in Civil War is a good example of this. He breaks the law and causes a lot of devastation to ensure the safety of his friend, Bucky.

JBrentonParker
May '19

Ugh, I hate you, you're giving me all kinds of ideas for new stories and I haven't even finished the two I'm currently working on! XD

On a similar note, listen to the song "Nemeses" by Jonathan Coulton. It's literally exactly the villain/hero relationship you just described in song form, and it also gives me all kinds of inspiration for interesting character dynamics!

Jonathan Coulton- Nemeses
praelia
May '19
elyss

Maybe I'm mixing it all up... But I'll share my opinion anyway

From what understand, anti-heroes are explicitly on the protagonist side, like Deadpool or Bakugou from BNHA. They're heroes of the story... just not the "I fight for the sake of good" kind of hero.
And then again, not all heroes are even good. The hero from Mega Mind (I haven't seen the movie but so I may be inaccurate) was became an antagonist because of his "nice guy" attitude towards the heroine

Antagonists are explicitly against the protagonists. I was thinking more along the lines of characters like Team Rocket. No matter how you look at them, they're antagonists and not villains (despite them always talking about being nasty and evil). We've seen them have their heroic moments, but in the end, they're still antagonists (and not anti-heroes) because they oppose Ash, who is the main protagonist.
Another character (from a less popular series) who I think is a great antagonist would be Isabella from The Promised Neverland. She is explicitly the enemy of the protagonists, but she's not an anti-hero or a villain. She has her own reasons of why she offers her children to the demons, and it's not because she's evil or because it's fun

WillisAuthor
May '19

Using this dynamic some in Prince's Priest. Ex-lover, not sure if he ever liked him but jealousy seems to surface seeing Dante with his new fling, John makes him super nasty. There's nothing amicable, but there's that tension and subtle clues that they had something serious and Falco likes to throw it in his face to rattle Dante just right or Dante unnerved about revealing they had "that kind of past" to John moments.

It definitely opens up the doors to do some plot twisting in my opinion.

elyss
May '19
praelia

I learned that anit heroes are people who feel that what they are doing is the right thing to do regardless of the fact that they aren't. An anti hero doesn't have to be the main guy but could easily be the antagonist or protagonist. Unfortanately, the only anti-heroes I can finger tend to be from lesser known things. A great anti-hero is the villain in the movie Watchmen. Or protagonist in the show Dexter. Deadpool also counts, lots of carnage but technically is on the good guys side (...usually)

I agree with your idea on antagonists . To me, a villain is just a kind of antagonist. Protagonist and Antagonist are the opposites of each other in the same way that a villain is opposite of hero, so I then make the conclusion that protagonist=hero and antagonist=villain

edit: on Bakugo, I see him as an antagonist nestled with the role of rival (I'm only watching the anime) I don't see the antagonist as inherently evil personally. It might sound contradictory to my idea that villain=antagonist, but I don't see villains as inherently evil either.

GabiWolf
May '19

I like that dynamic personally. I see it as tough love. In order for someone you love to grow you have to push them beyond their comfort zone. So it can be very sweet to sacrifice yourself and become a villain for the good of the one you love, even knowing that this person would hate you for it.

praelia
May '19
elyss

Honestly, I just find it real interesting that we could categorize characters into different characters roles

Guess it's all about perspective. The way I distinguish villains from antagonists is that villains are irredeemable and can't ever be a protagonist. Antagonists are those who can be redeemed.

lartianmartian1
May '19

Ooh, this is fun! And what about heroes who love their villains?!? Yeah, it could go either way in my story. The main couple on opposite sides of the conflict used to be married.

TimCaloweh
May '19

Now that i think about it i have quite a few villains planned to love the heroes. One of them is gonna be obsessed as well.

LordSeriphus
May '19

In my tapas work, Skaarin falls for Lucrys after he tortures him. He's pretty sadistic about it, seeing as he made Lucrys immortal. But then he looks to undo Lucrys' immortality, because he thinks it's more of a curse than a blessing.

In my other wip off of tapas, the antagonist seems like an asshole, when he's really just extremely stressed, and he's trying to protect Liira (MC) from harm. Later he becomes a bit more of a father figure. But originally, in the first book, he just seems like an ass.

elyss
May '19
TimCaloweh

I love when they're obsessed with the hero. My one fear in writing it is making it a 'healthy' obsession. I use healthy suuuuper loosely. Like I want Joker obsessed, not yandere if that makes since. I mean, I bet there's a good way to write a yandere type but my skills will probably never be there personally

nathanKmcwilliamsIn the making of Bunneh The Rabbit
May '19

I'm working towards my villain having an obsession not with the hero exactly, but the power/ability he possesses.
(In my series, each character has one unique ability)

Villain wants it. Villain believes Hero to be too weak and pathetic to have this power. Villain wants to show how someone with ambition would use this power. He wants to leave the Hero alive to see just how weak and useless he really is.

Eightfish
May '19

Oh crap, my comic has this dynamic!

And also so does El Goonish Shive, a character focused and very well written comic where, no spoilers, but something related to this made me tear up. It's amazing. Just have to get past the first few years of terribly written and drawn shlock lol

KoalaMari
May '19

Not that I enjoy it, (i like it in a way) but I try to make it for the viewers to see different perspectives. Yes, not all villains are born evil and not all heroes are perfectly good. I guess I'm giving more of the reality side (personality-wise) of the characters in my story. My characters have their shades of grey and it's not only black and white. It's just so happens that the villain of the story has more of a darker side.

For example, the main villain of my story is consider greedy, always want to get his way, and always interferes in the happiness of both protagonists. But why? Is he naturally like that? Answer is no. Somehow he has a background too and it was just his choice to be that way ( I mean I made him so it was my choice lol but if he is a real person he will have choices to be either good or bad.)