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Sep 2019

Long time no post. Computer death caused me to disappear. But while gone, I've continued doing more traditional art. And much like with my digital art and comic I share it one my social media. And here's where I hit upon this argument, not for the first time, but now I'm old enough and confident to call it rubbish.

When I share something I've worked hard on, tag it properly so it can be seen by others who are interested, particularly fanwork, and get no response, it can be very disheartening. There's only so long I can look at my work and go, well maybe I'm not good enough, maybe I need to keep improving before I start wondering if something else is going on. We've all looked at work from other popular artists and wondered why they get hundred of notes and we're getting none, right?

But when I get frustrated by the lack of response and try to talk about it, I'm invariably met with at least one person, usually more, telling me "you should be creating for yourself, not for the response you get". I'm sure lots of you have got the same response any time you've felt bad about the response you get too. And while this is usually meant with a good heart to help cheer us up, it's offensive to me in the same way many people find being called talented offensive.

I find it particularly rude coming from other creatives. Now, I don't know about you others, but for me and most creatives I know, we create all the time. We're writing and doing art or imagining doing so all the time, it's always on our minds. We doodle and create stories and sometimes do full pieces just because we want to. We are constantly creating for ourselves. We create for ourselves, we share for the response. If we just created just for ourselves, you'd never see it.

I like to compare it to sharing a sketchbook. Imagine sharing your sketchbook, handing it over to a table of friends and going "here check our what I did" and getting absolutely ignored.

Now, just to be clear, I'm not saying your self worth is in any way linked to your numbers in anyway. I acknowledge fully that is a damaging mindset.

What I'm saying is that answering people's frustration (and it usually is just frustration at putting hours of work in and loving something only to be ignored, please just imagine that if you're not a creator) by telling people they should just create for themselves and not care what other people think doesn't help in anyway. I'm not putting hours, sometimes days of work into one piece for the response but I'm saying it would be nice just to be acknowledged. That's all. Imagine doing an assignment at school you actually put effort into, only for it to be handed back without a mark because the teacher didn't even look at it, they had so many other papers to look at, sorry but never mind, you should learn for yourself, right?

So what's you guy's opinion on "create for yourself" and how to deal with the frustration of no response?

Edit: Please note, I'm not just talking about comics I'm talking about everything people put effort into and don't get any response to, and I am not looking for advice for myself.

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    Sep '19
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There are 84 replies with an estimated read time of 26 minutes.

I think everything you said is right on point. Yes, don't tie your self worth to your "numbers", but doggone it who writes a story expecting that it will never be read or heard? I mean if you sit at a table with your friends and go "hey guys, you should have been there last night, what a great story", you expect them to say "tell me what happened!". If I'm telling a story to my friends and everyone ignores me then I just shut up because there's no point to talk.

Well, if I'm really proud of my comic and nobody else reads it then I feel the same way, I'm frustrated and it makes me want to just shut up because stories are for sharing.

I personally find no issue with that piece of advice, though I understand your frustration. Not being acknowledged can be hard, but what the advice is trying to get you to understand is that, "even if your not being acknowledged, don't be discouraged."
I'm not making my comic or writing my stories to be seen, heard, and judged by other people. Constructive criticism, advice, and compliments are a by product of my work. I like what I do, it keeps me grounded in reality and helps me cope. It makes me smile regardless of what others say. I am creating for myself, especially with my current comic. It's the only piece of work that, at least at the onset, I was not willing to take any advice form others. Not because I didn't think I needed it, but because it wouldn't have been fun had I taken the project more seriously.
I feel like you have to take the lack of recognition with a grain of salt. In my eyes, if you truly care about what your doing you won't be so wrapped up in the possibility that others won't and don't feel the same way you do. I really don't care if someone else doesn't like what I do. I like what I do. And I know I'm not wronging anyone by doing it.

I dont create for myself.
I try to create for creators. I have learned however to accept that not everything I do will be properly rewarded or appreciated. What's most important is that I offered what I felt is best as a whole.

Hopefully as I improve my ideas will reach out more effectively.

@TopJimComics This is precisely it. I don't put things out there to be ignored. And this is one of the reasons I feel supporting small creators is one of the best things any of us can do. Even one positive response can mean the world to someone who has none and keep them sharing.

@IndigoShirtProd I mean, I acknowledged it's usually coming from a good place. I'm not wrapped up in what others think, but as I say, if you share something in even a small group and get ignored, eventually you're going to stop sharing and you will create just for yourself. Telling people "oh don't worry about it" doesn't actually help in anyway. My last 5 art posts have gone with literally 0 response. Nothing. None even from friends or small groups. If working on things for hours and getting literally 0 response wouldn't make you at least a little disheartened and frustrated and start wondering what you're doing wrong, good for you but my point is telling people not to worry about it really doesn't help, it just makes people feel like they can't share how they're feeling.

It’s almost as if you are looking at the audience for some kind of acknowledgement but to be honest with you people will give you advice they think you need and even though it’s not something that could necessarily help you that’s the advice they believe will help you.

To be honest it’s all up to you to take it with a grain of salt. I was in your position once. Despite not getting the answers I felt I needed I decided to do something about it. I personally stoped my old comic and story and started a new.

People will tell you you are doing art for your self and even though that may be true to some degree, no one wants to put endless effort and not see a gain or some kind of progress from their viewership. So I understand. But that is also where you make a choice.

Sometimes it’s good to drop old ideas and story’s and start a new. People won’t have the advice you are looking for. It’s just up to you to make a decision on what’s worth your time.

I don’t create for just myself. I create for everyone too. So if I have a “cool”, idea and for some reason no one gives a crap to look at it? I rethink my story and work on a new one. That’s just me tho. Hope this helps.

Another thing to realize -- saying "create for yourself" doesn't immediately contradict posting online. I know there are some who think "well if you post it online, obviously you want someone to give you attention".

Not entirely -- I know for me, I create content I personally like and I post it because I see not a lot of people are creating the content for it. I follow the mindset of "if you want something done right, you do it yourself". So I make the content I wanna see more of. Sharing that content comes from a community mindset rather than an attention mindset. If I like something, I want to find other people who like the same and discuss rather than just gather a lot of subs.

That, and it helps to not create in isolation. Victor Frankenstein did that, and he basically went without feedback and social interactions. The result? -- he went mad and created a monster. For me, creating for myself but also posting it just gives me another sense of community to be a part of. So at least for me, that's how I see it.

Again -- as people have mentioned, just take it with a grain of salt. There's good advice, shit advice, and different ways we interpret that advice. Me? I just use this idea in the way of community. If I know I can create the content I want, want to still read it, and know others do the same, I'm chill.

Just one of those things where you just pick and choose what you take.

I feel I should make this very clear in case I didn't in the original post: I'm not asking for advice for myself, I'm asking general opinions on what you think and how you deal with the frustrations of not getting any response. I'm a big girl, I've dealt with this for long enough and push on even if I'm frustrated. I'm asking for discussion not advice so I'm going to shut up for a while after answering this.

This is literally the crux of the argument I'm making, and not just about art. People feel this with all creation, with writing, stand alone illustrations, comic, fanwork, I imagine it applies to music, video anything. Literally anything. Telling people not to care about response is pointless.

I'm sorry, this is going to sound rude and I wish it didn't but there's not really anyway to say it bluntly without sounding rude. How do you not create in isolation if you're getting literally 0 response and 0 feedback. There's only so long you can keep experimenting and changing your style and improving and still getting nothing before you start to get frustrated and disheartened, right? Or rather before you go mad and create a monster (which honestly might actually get attention).

Being offended at a lack of response...is unlikely to win people over. Sometimes when people say 'create for yourself', they're trying to politely tell you that you're not getting attention because your art/writing isn't interesting. If that's the case, you have the option of working hard to get better, or accepting that your passion project may never have a wide release. That said, if you don't enjoy what you're doing, which is another way of understanding the phrase 'create for yourself', you're not going to be doing your best work. Make sure you're in the right line of work to begin with.

I think what is also fatal about this advice is that often times, it isn't taken into consideration that creators may have different goals. Especially in a place as diverse as the forums. If drawing/writing is just a hobby for somebody, then sure, 'create for yourself' can be a way to go about it. Numbers aren't anything more than some additional validation I guess. But if the person in question wants to make creating their job, then a sudden lack of response from the audience would be alarming and an ongoing lack of response might be the end of that person's dream. So telling that person they should create for themselves is like trampling on that dream. I'd call that a tad insensitive at least.

As for my own way of dealing with not getting a response, well, I do believe that you sometimes have to sit things out and I believe in my ability to create fast :grin: I don't drop novels so even if I wouldn't get any response for one of them, I'd still finish the thing. Although I might pick up another project on the side in the hope of that getting a bit more of a reaction or maybe even getting readers to click on the other one while the readers wait for updates.
So far, that approach has worked for me. Even one of my projects that had no comments for about a hundred chapters or so (on another site btw, I almost never get comments on Tapas to this day) picked up sometime after I hit like 400 or 450 chapters? So I guess being persistent can help even if it's sometimes hard to bear while you're staring in the void.

I mean, gotta pull from somewhere, even if you're not getting feedback. You're also not creating without looking somewhere else for inspiration and reference. That's the other half of creating in isolation; creative works don't come out of a vacuum.

You don’t sound rude you just sound frustrated and that’s understandable I get it. I don’t know all that you have done but I gave you advice based on “my” own experience. I did the best I could with promotion. I also searched for places online to where I can post and promote my work. Then if that doesn’t help, rethink your story, try to make some changes, if you feel like you have done that an all, ask your readers for advice, maybe bring in a writer to assist you. Look into popular genres.
Don’t be afraid to be cliche. A lot of ppl thing being cliche is a bad thing, but it’s really not. Like I said before, I’m speaking on personal experiences. The first comic I had here in Tapas had only 500 readers and I felt I was putting in so much work and nothing was getting better. I worked on a different story and now I’m sitting on 3.9k almost 4k.

What is my point? Well, do all that you can. And make a decision. Best of luck.

I know I said I'd shut up and let discussion happen but I want to make one thing clear.

I am not talking about people who are offended by not getting a response and think they're entitled to it. I specifically use the terms frustrated and disheartened, aka "I'm trying really hard, I'm improving, I'm learning for others who are getting notes/retweets/whatever, I'm putting myself out there, I don't understand what I'm doing wrong" mindset rather than the "wtf why aren't you guys paying attention I'm clearly worth it" mindset.

The last time someone used this expression, he was burying a subordinate in concrete.

I'm glad you posted this for the wider audience of "art" beyond comics because I feel like every creature on the planet is currently attempting to pen the next "great novel". It's unbelievably competitive and hard to garner attention, not to mention we are creating in an age when the format for storytelling is rapidly evolving into many different digital forms and it's challenging to figure out what avenue to plod to try to find an audience. I'm certain this frustration applies to indie and upstart artists of all kinds (illustrators, writers, film makers, musicians, etc).

I mean, at that point, I just take a break and work on other things. Again, as @yansusu referenced, a lot of creators do have different goals and motives, so my take on this is just different and it's kinda why I'm a bit laid-back in my responses. I'm of the mindset "If I'm not getting paid for this and I'm not enjoying it in some way, why am I doing it?", so that's mostly how I base my advice and experiences.

If I'm not getting the feedback I need but I'm also spending a lot of time on this, that's a sign for me to take a break and head on to something else for a bit. If I'm not drawing, I'm cooking, writing, exercising, putting more focus on school and work.

It helps me to take a step back and go "ok, what's REALLY going on". If I'm getting 0 feedback and 0 responses, my questions for myself are "where am I posting to get feedback? how many places have I posted to? Have I been posting and waiting for someone to respond or have I directly asked someone to give feedback?"

Again -- that's just my approach to it. It does sound like you're frustrated, and maybe there are times we can't always afford to take a break. But if we're spending 24/7 on something and nothing's getting done, there's only so much our bodies and minds can take before we burn out. And then even LESS gets done at that point. Along with marketing, having passion, and looking at other people's work, it's also important to maintain self-care.

I’m guilty of telling people to “create for themselves” who aren’t getting the audience attention they’re seeking. In no way had I meant for it to be more offensive.
I mean it more like you (“you” being a general term for all creators) should continue with your original idea and carry on with your work, and see if maybe the traction will come later on. And to not give up on your work because the numbers aren’t what you’re expecting right away. It’s likely that your story matters to you or you wouldn’t be working on it. But I guess this can just be my mentality since I create as a hobby.
And sometimes I guess it just comes down to finding all the ways to self-promote on different platforms. Or finding ways to engage with your audience in each chapter you put out so it’s more interactive.
It’s hard to gain traction and it can be disheartening and unmovingating when you are excited to share your work to, what feels like, no avail.
But I think people mean best when they are encouraging people to create for themselves.

All the work I do for myself I just don’t post. I probably have 400 pages of unpublished comics and definitely more illustrations than that.

Some of the work I keep for myself are projects I started and tried to test the waters with friends or online real quick but didn’t land as well as I wanted them too but finished them privately on my own time for fun OR I’ve been toying with finishing a project in its entirety before doing anything with it.

The obsession with posting everything online is definitely unhealthy and I think that constant dopamine rush isn’t good for anyone and people shouldn’t ignore the research. I think people really need to think about how and why they’re using social media and maybe take a real long break and practice making work without that incentive.

I think 'create for yourself' is an easy platitude to use because it can be a blanket statement for all sorts of situations.

Ultimately I believe the true message behind it is to "Do what makes you happy."

E.G.
Make this work to help one get by/deal with life, an audience comes second. (especially if it's the process of creating and the actual work itself that lifts one's mood, not the response to it.)
Don't chase trends one doesn't even like and be disappointed if the numbers aren't coming up how one wants them.
Don't bend to the will of what audiences are clamoring for, mutating the real story one wants to tell.
Have the numbers but the project is making one miserable (and one isn't under contract/paid to complete it)? Move on to a new project that does make one happy!

Ah yes...I'm familiar with this...

I feel like the true argument here isn't Creating for Oneself vs. Creating for Others and deciding which one is the superior mindset. I think the point is that 'just create for yourself' as a response to someone's struggles is not only unoriginal, it's rather insensitive.

Basically, I see the situation this way:

A: "Hey so I'm having a hard time gaining an audience for my work; I don't want much, just for some people to like and pay attention to what I do from time to time, and it's really frustrating that I can't have that"

B: "Okay...well, you wouldn't feel frustrated if you'd just stop wanting that"

A: "OmG ThAnK YoU sO mUcH I'm CuReD"

...That's basically what's happening, IMO. ^^; It's in the same vein as telling a depressed person "just cheer up" or telling someone mourning the death of their loved one "just stop thinking about them". Like seriously?? Your silence would be preferable to a suggestion like that...if you can't offer help, at least offer understanding, rather than dismissal.