40 / 52
Mar 2023

Yep. All sexualities are complex because all people are complex. Relationships are complex.

I remember having a massive crush on a coworker many years ago, but they were definitely straight and I definitely respected that. Never even brought it up. They ended up finding a girlfriend, going mad over heels for her and eventually got married. And I supported them the entire way. It was truly wonderful to see how incredibly happy he was, like one of those unheard of fairytale romances. We were best friends for a long time (they eventually moved and we just naturally grew apart, but it's one of my fondest relationships).

In the scott pilgrim comics, which are good, Wallace wells thinks Lucas lee is a dumb sellout actor. But because the movie is bad, in that he obviously thinks Lee is hot, because you can’t just have a gay character NOT be into every man he sees. What do you take him for, a nuanced person with thoughts and feelings beyond his sexuality?

Exactly I have a crush on a coworker who is a lovely girl but she and I are great friends too. She knows I like her but she doesn’t mind but we are just friends. Relationships sure are complicated.

Bisexual erasure is also an issue but that's a topic I could rant on for a long time, lol.

But I feel you, for sure. Bi people get treated like they're absolute sex maniacs, even within the LGBT+ community. It's one of the things that sets of my rage. Ahem.

I've even seen children's media have a bisexual erasure problem.

The main character of the two princes podcast on Spotify is susceptible to the influence of sexy flirty lady monster magic before meeting his love interest, but after he meets his love interest, someone tries it on him it doesn't work, and he explicitly says it's because he's into guys. Like they basically implied that meeting a hot guy turned him gay.

Exactly I’m not a sex manic. I’ve never even kissed anyone yet! People treat like having multiple preferences don’t even exist!

I've had a theory there are three main types of gay characters in mainstream media. The sex obsessed attractive gay, who ultimately has to be punished and have some tragic ending. The best friend who has to be portrayed as far from sexually appealing as possible so he's not threatening to the audience (be it physical characteristics or personality). And the older washed up gay who sits around complaining about why they're all old and miserable and can't find love while still doing all the same things they did as young men. These are not healthy role models for young men.

But I also get offended by some queer media where the story tries to tell me that in order to be gay I have to like campy things or act a certain way, or use specific labels, but maybe there have been so many of those because they're still trying to cater to what they think the mainstream views gays as? I don't know. I'm technically a bad gay since I'm gray ace and happen to like men, I felt growing up just as ignored or under represented by queer and straight authors alike, but maybe I was looking in the wrong place for content. I can understand how people get angry about bi erasure for sure.

I get that, too. Like, I was heavily into sports as a kid. I was also the rebellious skater who hung out with a bunch of straight dudes and got into trouble all the time. I was in the military (secretly at time since the whole "don't ask, don't tell" thing was going). Most all of those are things society doesn't see as 'gay guy' material.

I've never really had a thing for porn. Don't judge people who do, but it just doesn't do anything for me. Never slept around either and all of my relationships have been dedicated and pretty wholesome.

There are also areas where I guess I'm pretty 'typical' gay. I love kids, and caring for them. I'm very openly a feminist, I get really involved in activism, I'm an artist.

But if you stop to think, those attributes could easily be any gender, and any sexuality. It's just weird how roles are so entrenched not just in genders, but in sexualities as well.

Listen im not gonna pretend im not the first person to complain about shitty steriotypes and how uncomfortably sexualized every BL i see is to the point someone sends me a BL with anything remotely wholesome i eat that shit up..... BUT

There is gonna be a point where we have to accept that some of this toxic and/or "problematic" tropes and story beats... are actually just a guilty pleasure that a lot of people just wanna go home and read after their long day at work.

Is it mostly teenage girls who just wanna see two hot boys kissing? yeah mostly. but theres also people who enjoy hate reading and actually LIKE having a really shitty and toxic story to read. Hell, I watched 50 shades of grey with my bondage enthisist friends and we had a grand time yelling at the movie for being bad. its still a BAD movie, but people got opened up to the idea of feminine sexuality and bondage (for better or wrose) and REAL bondage people can explain what the movie did worng and how to do it right wink wink nudge nudge

I greatly dislike a lot of BL tropes and a lot of BL writen by women but... i mean a majority of them are writing it for themsleves? I tend to jsut stay away from it or try to make my own versions of a "good" BL :sweat_01: everyones got their own taste in media and im sure they would consider my "healthy" BL romance to be boring and lacking any "hot drama" to make it intresting for them so they would avoid my shit like the plgue just like i would avoid theirs :sweat_02:

I personally advocate for people of any gender or sexuality to write any sort of content, and I fully support people writing all kinds of relationships. Toxic or otherwise, classic seme/uke stuff, I genuinely don't care. I think women having a space where they can write erotic (or just romantic) fiction about two gay guys is absolutely fair, given how women-- especially lesbians-- have been all but owned by straight men in media for literal centuries. Women have a right to enjoy whatever couple types they like. Men really have no right to bitch, IMO.

That said, I'm very specifically focusing on people who write gay characters in ways that follow real-world harmful ideology. Writing a gay character who hits on literally everyone because who he is, is that gay trope. Because the people writing it believe that is what a gay man is and don't have any other sort of understanding. I think that's different than analyzing typical BL tropes.

Thank for bringing up this subject to the table now I know where to find someone who actually has had those experiences. However, everyone’s experiences wether gay or straight or bi or black or white or purple orange and blue experiences are not alike.

Again like I said life is complicated and people aren’t so black and white as we try to make it. As simple as we want it to be it can’t be so because if everyone was the same, life would be boring as hell.

I just feel like theres always going to be some kind of overlap of "person who is just trying to make the most intresting gay drama possible" and "very harmful gay tropes" I think its fine to go to the authors and try to educate them as... again they could just be 16 year olds having fun or 30 year olds who have no internet comunity experience. But you really shouldnt try to mind read which ones are doing it for Tlols and who is just agressivly uneducated- and prob shouldnt be too suprised if they HAVE fans and their fans get upset youre trying to "educate" them when the fans feel like "theres nothing toxic" or sometimes just as commonly "yea its toxic, thats the point"

I get what you're saying, but I'd argue there's a difference between a toxic relationship (think something like Twilight or 50 Shades, or even Beauty and the Beast) and something where you are using bigotry (all female characters in a show are damsels in distress, or the only gay character present is constantly trying to sleep with every man he comes across).

It all depends on context for me. If the gay character is just ment to be the sluty character cause that's the kind of character they wanted to write about and he's consistent and has a character outside of being sluty then I think it can be fine if it's written well.

But I assume you're referring to when it becomes sussy baka and every gay character this particular writer writes about is always the slut- always sleeping around- always only exclusively on screen to tell a gay joke or be slutty- and literally has no personality outside of those jokes and those scenes.

But I guess I also just consider this "bad writing" more then I consider it toxic :thinking: tho there's no reason that can't over lap

When I think of toxic tropes, I think more along the lines of those weird BL/Yaoi tropes. Like treating the sub like a little girl or someone constantly going "no homo" whenever they kiss or things get sexual. Or BL fans attacking bisexuals (fictional or real) if they end up dating a girl because it ruins their mlm ship. :rolling_eyes:

Some dudes are into that kinda thing too, though. There's a whole kink around it. lol.

I mean I get where people are coming from, I just genuinely don't think those tropes matter much. So what if they wanna make the designated bottom basically a girl? Eh, let 'em. Let 'em be happy. It's just different when it's bigotry. Like attacking bisexuals for sure is a problem, or hating on female characters purely because they're female. That's just not cool.

I am not talking about feminine men or bottoms who like to crossdressing. I am talking about when the dom is an adult man and the sub looks like a little girl. Ex, those weird Black Butler ships.

That isn't a BL trope so much as a trope in general. But it's definitely gross.

I strongly disagree with telling people to not write stuff if they know it's cringe or harmful and are completely upfront about that so people who don't want to read it can avoid it.

There's a difference between being genuinely ignorant and perpetuating harmful tropes because you actually think that's how things work, and deliberately writing that stuff because it's a guilty pleasure and you're trying to warn people about it like a responsible person. I don't think anyone has the right to police what other people write about in their own space.

There's only really a problem when people think/act like that's normal, and spread it into general culture where anyone can see it and be influenced by it without knowing any better. I agree that it's important to know your subject if your work is intended for the wider world.

Completely get it. I also don't like when an author uses an identity just for the sake of having said identity. Plus false stereotypes. I don't mind people using a stereorype to make fun of the stereotype or if they add 1 character extremely feminine or masculine as long as they make sure to let the reader know that is not the norm.

Like you said everyone is super diverse and there are a lot of different people even if they are categorized into the same group (if you want to see it that way).

That is also one of the main reasons I avoided creating my OC with a certain hairstyle. I feel like there are a lot of lesbian couples out there but the media/entertainment industry mainly uses 2 types of hairstyles. Super short hair or half their hair shaved.... :sweat_smile:

I don't mind the hairstyles per se. I just get tired to see everyone think that in order to be a lesbian you have to look a certain way.

Having said that I think it is super important to investigate any topic you want to write about. Like cooking, science, etc.

As for romance I don't think people need to investigate much as long as they don't fall into stereotypes thinking that by being non-straight your romance will somehow be different. At least, that's how I see romance. All romances are equal but with slight difference from couple to couple.

I've been planning to make a story about a gay relationship. But I hesitated to start because I don't live in a country where being openly gay is an option. I wanted to include various types of couples without offending anyone.
I've researched about it and read a lot of BL and GL comics (although I understand some of those comics don't represent how they are)
I agree with you. I don't think jumping into a particular comic plot is appropriate just because it'll most likely be famous.

Do you have any specific advice for the depiction of a feminine gay male character, and making them come off properly and not as an offensive stereotype?

Writing gay characters / creating gay characters can be really difficult, even for people who know
their subject. Everything which has to do with someone´s sexuality can be difficult and offensive.
But I 100% agree with you, especially with "please at least try to come at it with some sense of
awareness and education"

Honestly, I don't really know any feminine gay guys. Most of the gay guys I've ever met were... I dunno, just like any straight guy. I do know femme guys exist but they're really not that common in comparison. Since I don't have that experience, you'd probably be better off asking other people in the community who consider themselves femme. I think reddit has some decent communities, could try there.

I know a couple of feminine gay guys. Hmm, best way to describe them is they are sassy?

In a sense they are stereotypical but not at the same time? Hard to describe them, tbh.

I met them during my time as a cheerleader. So maybe that is why they were sassy?

The other gay guys I know aren't feminine. Like you said you would never distinguish them from a straight guy if they didn't tell you about it.

I've seen a few here and there at clubs or whatever, but yeah, it's pretty rare.

I think... as far as the purpose of the question, I would not write a gay character as feminine because it is very, very easy to fall into a really unpleasant and bigoted stereotype about gay men. The whole thing with being 'effeminate' or what have you. I'd just avoid it entirely. I don't write my gay characters as femme, personally. Just normal dudes who do cool stuff and happen to be gay.

Yup. Plus saying feminine is a pretty broad spectrum.

For me a masculine female character can be someone strong and protective while for others masculine can mean an alpha male but in female version (which I wouldn't find attractive).

Personally, I think you should write personalities of characters without taking into account their sexual identity or gender. If you want a flirty character then create a flirty character if they happen to be gay so be it. But don't make them flirty just because they are gay (haven't met many flirty gay people but I am just using gay as an example since that was the topic).

As long as you plan your character like any other character I think your writing will come out fine and not offensive.

To write an effeminate gay character without being offensive, I say just write them with the same considerations as you would any other characters. I've met effeminate gay men and masculine gay men, and at the end of the day, the traits of being "effeminate" and "masculine" are just a single part of their personhood. These people I know are brilliant scholars, singers, writers, activists, professors, and all sorts of characteristics. They have lives and personalities that go beyond them being effeminate. When you write that effeminate gay character, ask yourself, how else would you describe this person? If the only thing you can come up about them is that they're delicate, pretty, and effeminate, then you should consider giving them other traits.

There's nothing inherently wrong with an effeminate gay man. Fact of the matter is, they exist out there, and the ones I know are strong-willed individuals, especially given how homphobic our country can be. It's all about making characters like them multifaceted people.

Also, I feel like this could also be addressed by having more than one gay character. If the only gay character is a highly effeminate gay guy who ticks all the stereotypes, then yes, it could definitely be bad optics. Even when you've given them enough of a personality and story beyond them being effeminate, sometimes people might not give you the benefit of the doubt. But having a diverse cast where they present differently, have varying personalities, lives, etc. will definitely help you out.

I would say, think of all of your characters as having many masks, or sides to their personality, that are not always on display. While I've encountered a spectrum of gay men across my life and dating (which is what's missing from media, a spectrum of characters), I would say many, but not all, of the effeminate gay men I've known, tend to be more performative about that side of the personality. I don't mean to sound judgmental by using the word performative, I just mean that for many people their personalities change depending on who they are around and where they are. Are they in a large crowd at a party or a small setting with one or two people? What I've seen a lot is that there are many gay men who when thrown together in a crowd, part of their personality becomes amplified and they all sort of play off each other when around lots of gay men. This characteristic is close to the portrayal of stereotypical flamboyant or effeminate gay men. So if you want a character who portrays that side, I would say don't always make the volume on full blast, that character should be more fluid in their personality.

If instead, you're going for a character who is soft, subservient, and quiet (which sadly is not what society should be labeling as effeminate), I'd say it's far more interesting to give this character other qualities, like appearance, that always don't match up with those personality traits.

I think when it comes to effeminate men, I think it varies from person to person when it comes to them finding these characters offensive or not. I think gay men who are not fem can sometimes get annoyed at these characters because of the lack of representation for other types of gay men.

I think if you wanted to avoid being offensive, you should avoid hyper sexualizing them. Also, not all feminine are extroverts. I think some writers fall back on making them loud and the center of attention. But most of the feminine gay men I have met have been shy and quiet. And their outfits were usually unisex instead of being over the top or flashy.