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Mar 2023

I feel like it's just getting worse and worse over the last year or two.

It's okay to write Disney romance. It's okay to write toxic relationships. It's okay to write smut. It's okay to write cutesy high school "will they won't they" themes.

Really. It's okay.

Why do we have these expectations? How is this any better than "video games make kids bad" or "two swan dads make kids gay" or whatever other crazy nonsense. Why does society worship GoT, which literally romanticizes rape and incest, but rapidly attacks some manga-esque romance with the perv x tsundere trope?

I don't get it. I don't like it. It feels snobbish, uppity, judgmental, condescending, and gatekeeping.

It's okay to not LIKE certain tropes and themes, but why is there so damn much ridicule against them?

And to get it out of the way, no, I'm not talking about romanticizing pedophilia or bestialities or whatever. But things happen in stories. A Handmaid's Tale is incredibly insightful, but I myself cannot read through it (and I've tried) because I genuinely cannot handle the assault scenes. But I don't judge people for reading it and I don't judge the powerful points it carries.

I dunno man. It's 5am.

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    Mar '23
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    Apr '23
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Yeah, for some reason we've got a real epidemy of people tying everyone's morality to the media they consume...

Right, it's not just me seeing this?

I feel like it's absolutely everywhere lately. I've literally seen someone drop their work because they got comment-bombed about barely inappropriate touching. And even when the character was supposed to come off as a creep to begin with.

It just feels ridiculous.

I feel like we seriously need to ensure we do not support this kind of gatekeeping in this community or it's going to get out of hand fast.

It's been rampant in fandom spaces for a while, genshin impact fandom being probably the best example with their pseudo-incest caused by mistranslation and schrodinger's adults you can't ship with anyone or you'll get called a pedophile
And about the person dropping their work - damn... I feel like I'm so lucky that those people seem to never come across Horny Hell (guess they're app only 'xD) and don't have to deal with kids calling me out for 1000 years wide age gap between immortal demons

My partner is huge into Genshin so I vaguely know what you're talking about, lol.

I know one of the topics people really seem to hate on is teacher x student stuff, but one of the better animes I've seen in the last year had that exact theme. But it was so well done. This girl was completely in love with her teacher, and he actually kept trying to dissuade her. Much of the story revolves around her complex feelings as a teen and this teacher was really brilliant at handling it. She ends up finding him again a few years into adulthood and they do decide to date at that point, but it was all really wholesome.

Why does society worship [x] but rapidly attacks [y]?

Maybe these aren’t the same people???

It feels like you are trying to take all the opinions on the internet and sort of turning it into a monolith.

It's an example because GoT is easily the most popular tv show in the west. I have met countless people who loved GoT but then turned around and hated on the aforementioned tropes and themes.

I actually made a reddit poll about it six months or so ago, lol.

I don’t watch GoT, not for me. So I don’t have much to say.

My guess however is that most people do not enjoy the show because they are into SA or other taboo things. And I am pretty sure there are people who like GoT yet dislike those parts.

It is also not fair comparing it to YA lit which is recommended for a younger audience.

That's not a fair argument.

That's proposing that people who read taboo topics are into those things themselves IRL, which goes back to "reading about two dad swans isn't gonna make your kid gay". It's nonsensical. I know of an ongoing webcomic that's really popular which has a hugely toxic relationship, and the comments from readers are almost entirely all about hoping the MC escapes the relationship and hating on the abuser.

YA is still adult. Adult is adult, no?

I can understand how you feel. It can be frustrating to see certain tropes and themes get ridiculed while others are celebrated. It's important to remember that everyone has their own preferences and opinions when it comes to media. What one person enjoys, another might not. It's okay to write what you want to write and read what you want to read, as long as it's not harmful to others. At the end of the day, it's all about personal choice and respect for others' choices.

I see your internal clock is messed up like mine XD

That's exactly how I feel. It just seems there's a lot of completely unfair judgment going around and it really bothers me.

Yeaaah. I've had insomnia ever since my teens and sleep about every 20 hours or so, lol. My schedule has never been normal.

Then why is it called like this? The name suggests that it should be more for 18 to mid twenties, not for teens. (I'm genuinely asking)

I honestly don't know the ratings so that's fair.

But media with adult themes is usually rated for adults, not kids. So I still don't see the point of your argument.

ouch... I recently quit my job, and now my body doesn't know how to handle not being inside a bright store.

My body be like

I assumed that too. Ratings are weird though.

Either way, it doesn't matter because you aren't going to have adult themes in kids' media. That stuff tends to be heavily controlled.

I don’t think we should have young teens be reading romance stories that romanticize SA. People out there who are adults can enjoy adult media with darker themes while thinking that YA shouldn’t be normalizing those things.

I am trying to say that just because people like GoT or other adult media doesn’t mean they romanticize SA. Your OP made it seem like people who like GoT aren’t allowed to criticize other media.

I didn’t name the genre but when someone says YA books, they mean books for teenagers.

I'm pretty sure sex scenes, either consensual or not, are not permitted in media made for kids. At least not in most modern countries.

No, I'm saying there's a hypocrisy. People who enjoy GoT presumably do not get off on SA. People who enjoy comics that HAVE SA do not presumably get off on said SA. It should be fair across the board.

I'm also fairly certain most teens have the same level of access to GoT as they do to adult comics.

I think after 200 years english speaking part of the world should update this term so that it would make more sense with modern definition of an adult... 'xD

The world hasn't evolved yet (and are selective of what OK or not) and I anticipate this. I think you should keep doing what your doing.

Short answer GoT had naked people. Plus it was the first medieval fantasy they ever saw in quite a while.

Tons of other medieval fantasy exist but most people didn't like watching anime or old movies.

Also people follow trends by years/generations. It is not until they grow up that they find out their trend was nothing new/different and it was probably dumb.

Remember how the squid games got super popular? But the concept wasn't new. It has been done in multiple anime. Remember among us? The concept isn't new it is the game of wink murder. Their cute animations plus streamers is what made among us boom.

But yeah, people love naked people on tv shows/series since its a good pretext to see naked people without getting judged. They also love beleiving that what they watch/play is unique and has never been done before.

Did I mention naked people? 🤣🤣🤣

I do agree with you. I think some of the appeal of GoT was that is was violent and sexual. A lot of network television has to deal with strict regulation and censorship. HBO, being a private subscription network, does not need to follow these rules. When it came out in 2011, that was before a lot of the streaming wars, so I think people liked the whole shock value of the show.

I mostly just found it boring.

Speaking from a publishing perspective, romance in novels is a cottage core industry. Throw in any buzzword you want about women supporting women and there will be gatekeeping. Women make careers out of writing smutty romances which include all the toxic tropes we hate. You insult their income stream, gatekeeper will happen.

With the examples you referenced, I think I has less to do with the idea of "romance" and more to do with the effects of p*rn and how culturally accepted violence against women is. A Handmaid's Tale was written as a warning dystopia but the show, from the ads, seems to highlight more a world where abused women are fighting to reclaim the power. GoT feeds into the idea a lot of male writers have about fantasies being "historically accurate" so it's okay to assault women.

With standard romance novels, the readers don't care. As long as the books provide them a "safe" place to experience the traumas in the book. They don't care if she was beaten, gaslighted, SA'd or nearly assaulted - as long she's "happy" by the end of the book and her primary love interest "loves" her, the audience is willing to forgive all sorts of crimes. You try to fight the diehard fans, they'll gatekeep.

Completely 100% agree.

I have a lot of beef with how women are treated in media. Especially when it comes to representing lesbians because it's almost ALWAYS oversexualized and really designed for straight guys to get off to. Pisses me off. Like rage levels. lol.

I remember when Sakimichan started to do NSFW art and she got so much shit, but I applauded her for it. Women have just as much right to enjoy smut and all that as men do.

I can't watch GoT myself, I can't handle the way women are portrayed in it. I just can't. I don't judge others but for me it's really... very upsetting.

I do think women are more likely to write sex scenes and general adult content than men, and tend to write it... well, better. At least from my view. I'm not sure why, I guess it's a preference thing. But I usually prefer romance and adult content written by women than by men.

I had not considered how this sort of gatekeeping impacts specifically women, and I appreciate you bringing that to light. I'm all about supporting my sisters, especially in the LGBT+ world.

let me semi-quote the only sex scene written by a male fantasy author that didn't make me want to die of embarrassment because of how god awfully written it was:
"they did it, him and her." - Andrzej Sapkowski, I don't remember which Witcher book 'xD
But I also remember some bad sex scenes written by women (Anne Rice's ones were pretty painful)
Though there's one male author who I can think of who wrote some nice romance/sex scenes - Ken Follet in his Kingsbridge series, I really liked the theme of characters finally being able to be with each other after years and decades and finding each other even more attractive than when they were young when they could finally enjoy each other.

Yeah. I mean I really hate generalizing, especially with genders, but I do think women just tend to write them better. I think a big part of it is that women seem more likely to set the mood, create build up, and have foreplay and things like that. Guys tend to sorta just get to the point, which bores the hell out of me. They tend to be a bit more raunchy as well, in a way that just doesn't appeal to me.

I don't generally get anything from straight sex scenes but I can appreciate a passionate moment between two people when written well.

This is actually a fact. They've proven that males respond better to visual stimuli so they are more likely to watch dirty videos or look at p*rn online. Females respond better to written stimuli and that's why they're more likely to buy smutty books.

I can't really attest to the "quality" since I found out that a lot of the popular romance writers out there could actually be men writing under female pseudonyms. But in general, I know what you mean. I have seen a few straight male centric "romances" out there as I've gotten more into the Amazon circles and frankly, they make me want to cringe. Single white male is forced into a "save the world" situation and over the course of the plot meets 2+ beautiful women who become instantly besnookered with him. The other romance writers can't really do anything about their sexism without admitting that they too are sexist.

I try not to judge people for their media choices but I won't watch it. I won't watch/read anything that shows gratuitous violence (especially against women) or assault.

I apologize profusely for my gender.

We're embarrassing, lol.

Ah, harems.

I think that's one of the reasons I defended BL so hard before I decided to write anything myself. I was really new to it, but basically the moment I actually bothered to look at it, I saw so many people raging about toxic relationships or various tropes, or just complaining incessantly about BL. A media largely made by women, for women. But then they don't bat an eye at the shit in GoT or Vikings.

It stinks of sexist double-standards.

This seems like a hot topic.

My point of view:

Portraying unhealthy sexual practices and relationships - nonconsensual, abusive, exploitative - is not necessarily bad. Such relationships exist and are an unfortunate part of the human experience. Writing about them taps into audience knowledge and for some, personal trauma, which bridges a bond between story and reader.

However, I do think that romanticizing them is dangerous. The written word is powerful. For some vulnerable or obsessive people, such works will contribute as part of a greater whole to beliefs in the acceptability of such conduct. And people who want to do things that are not generally accepted as moral will search out such sources to reinforce their position. The advent of the internet has allowed for self-selected echo chambers, reinforcing nonfactual and/or nonmoral (see, e.g. torture) beliefs and reinforcement of those those beliefs has demonstrably led to believers committing acts of individual and mass violence.

So, yes, I was deeply troubled to hear about a high school science teacher in a small town 20 miles from me not only having multiple crushes on his students but belonging to a secret site which was full of romanticized stories of forbidden love between teachers and their high school students. That was a recipe for disaster.

I don't think GoT romanticizes violence or sexual assault, but rather is attempting to tell a story in a historical time period context which is authentically dangerous and violent. At some point in writing, such things can become gratuitous and that is something an author should be mindful of.

With respect to gay books for children, it is dumb to suggest that reading such a book can change someone's orientation, but a lot of people who take that position have a retrograde, unscientific belief that there is no such thing as sexual orientation - homosexuality is a sin which can afflict everyone. More jaded and knowledgeable homophobes want to suppress such books because they want to keep gay kids from feeling comfortable enough to embrace their sexuality. Modern rationality realizes that homosexuality is objectively morally neutral, though.

I recall there being a lot more to the negativity sent towards this artist aside from them drawing nsfw but for sake of not wanting to derail i wont get into it. but just drawing mature stuff is hardly something i've seen taken as an issue or reason for beef. course the internet is a place where people will start online fights over even the pettiest things (the pancake/waffle tweet sums that up perfectly imo) so nuance is important


putting more focus on the original topic I think people are free to depict whatever in fiction but at the least tag things properly (it's one of the few reasons i don't mind AO3)

heck harlan covered my thoughts almost exactly

Oh yeah, it's double-standards galore. It is not my place to judge if people want to be in a polyamorous relationship but all members are consenting to the dynamic. They'll freak out about a man with a dozen women but they don't bat an eye if a woman wants to have a relationship with a dozen men. The men don't get a choice if they're okay with the dynamic, it's all about the woman.

I can "forgive" (loosely?) regular harem dynamics in historical works if the writer understands how harems work. Historically, plural wives run the household with each wife managing a certain area. The husband is useless except to provide them money. It's a lot less sexual and more socio-political intrigue and backstabbing. But writers don't want to talk about that kind of stuff. They only want to talk about violence against women.

I would add GoT is not kind to the male characters either. I don't like Martin's writing style and shock for shock sake. But to say the women are treated worst than the men in that show is kind of not seeing the men horribly brutalized and killed (genitals cut off like Theon Greyjoy). It's an all around shit show for shock value.

It seems like there's been this idea going around that if you include a sensitive topic, you're somehow "endorsing" it.. which takes away a lot of the nuance of writing. Of course there's people who endorse the horrible things that they write about, that's why they get criticized, but to say that you can't write about sensitive topics, especially ones that should be acknowledged, such as toxic relationships, is pretty absurd. I'm with you on this one, even though I usually try to stray away from topics like those as I dislike writing about them.

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closed Apr 9, '23

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