INK Concerns (with MATH!)

Rhonder · Nov '19

I can say with confidence that it's actual Extra and not the "bonus ink", as I've purchased ink for use in the previous 2 Inksgiving events from the higher tiers, and given it all away to people (Bonus ink is weird and can only be used for premium and also expires I think?)

But yeah, I wasn't meaning to downplay it as a small amount: just laying down the hard numbers xD

the rest is conjecture on my part but I almost wonder if it's a result of the same currency being used for premium content and tipping... like maybe the purchase options were built with premium unlocks in mind and then the translation to how it works with support is wonky? Dunno. Even then it looks like premium comics are like 300 per episode? And none of the "base values" divide neatly into that so no clue haha.

colinmooredraws · Nov '19

That then raises another question: Why call it "4000 + 1000" for $5 and not just say it's 5000? Not to you, specifically, but in general.

It all feels a bit...shady. Because if at its base value Ink is indeed 1250 per $1, and Tapas is taking 15 or 30% (whether it was for support or ads)...what about the amount lost in the conversion? Sure, if I buy $50 worth of Ink, it translates penny for penny to the artist. But if I buy even just $20 worth, which results in 22,500 ink, for the artist that is $18. Tapas makes $2 off that one transaction before it takes its official cut.

One person doing that, it might be easy to shrug off. It's just 10%, right? But that scales.

At the "most popular" level of $10. That translates to 10,500 Ink which is $8.40 for the artist. It seems like less with just $1.60 going to Tapas. But that's now 16% of the total.

Give that's their most popular, let's say 5,000 people go for that option. Each one just puts in $10 to get that Ink for a total of $50,000. With a loss of 16% that's $8,000 that gets "lost" in the conversion.

This is all before that 15% of Tapas' official share or the fees based on where the Ink came from (mobile, web, etc).

So if they're already taking a sizeable chunk off the back end, why is it necessary to have this built-in "loss" on the front end?

nostalgicroxas · Nov '19

From my understanding it's because that "1000" extra is specifically for Premium content, meaning 4000 can be spent on anything on the website, but that extra 1000 can only be spent on Premium content and nothing else ever.

colinmooredraws · Nov '19

That contradicts what @Rhonder just said.

But if this IS the case, Bonus ink would remove it from the pool of what it's worth when given in support, making all Ink purchased worth the same amount. Which loses 36% of its value when given for support.

phoenixrenaissance · Nov '19

The + (whatever value) ink in the "value packs" is not bonus ink, it can still be tipped to creators.

qwerty · Nov '19

I think I can confirm that's not the case since I've spent that on tipping non-premium people before.

I've always just assumed the discrepancy between what you pay for the ink and the value it redeems to was a way of increasing Tapas' margins, along with the fee ¯_(ツ)_/¯

phoenixrenaissance · Nov '19

I'm not sure if I'm following everything perfectly here but as far as purchasing, 800 ink = $1. It was the community that figured out that in order to get as close to tipping a creator $1 (because of fees and such) you would need to need to tip them around 1200-1300 ink.

colinmooredraws · Nov '19

That's exactly the point I'm making. And it's concerning. If this is the case, it's a HUGE margin. They're taking anywhere from 4 to 36% then taking 15 or 30% at the end.

colinmooredraws · Nov '19

Here, I broke down the values for how much get lost in each transaction, with an example of how much would be lost to Tapas in the conversion for every 5K people that purchase at that level.

Based on these numbers:

qwerty · Nov '19

Yeah. Personally I've never been bothered by it because

a) They're a small company, they've gotta make money and idk what their various income streams actually look like so maybe the high margin here is important for them, who knows? Anyway I don't mind supporting Tapas too since I like the site.

b) tbh I feel like most of the value in most ink donations is just like "the spirit of giving" and accompanying warm fuzzies. Probably like 80-90% of tips are really small and it doesn't make much difference whether the creator gets $0.10 or $0.15. I don't mind if people supporting me think they're giving more than they actually are if that'll make them happier, and most creators probably care more about the gesture of appreciation than the monetary value of such small amounts too.

...but maybe I'm too sappy and nonchalant lol

nostalgicroxas · Nov '19

...I suppose 2million is kind of small considering webtoons...

But I do wonder now why Tapas seems to be taking such large chunks when their "support the creator" is now immediately competing with sites like Ko-Fi.

colinmooredraws · Nov '19

Thank you, that's exactly what I was hunting for. $2M is definitely not a "small business." Doubly so when they have millions of users.

It would be one thing if Ink was just sort of something you earned through the site somehow. Which you CAN do, but it's only like 10 ink at a time. This is people putting in real money that they think is translating to real money for the artists. It doesn't give me warm fuzzies to know that Tapas pocketed 36% of some young, eager fan's money when they just wanted to show a little support to their favorite comics only to turn around and pocket an additional 15% when the artist asks to be paid.

phoenixrenaissance · Nov '19

I do think you're forgetting that the first 15-30% transaction fee does come out as soon as you make your purchase and it does not go to Tapas.
Tapas takes their share after the ink has been tipped.

Here's another thread where people were talking about this topic if you haven't seen it yet.
https://forums.tapas.io/t/tipping-fees-are-stupidly-high?source_topic_id=38519

rainbowolfe · Nov '19

I don't think it's fair to call Tapas anything but a small business. If Tapas is a "big business" then what is Webtoons? What is Amazon? An ultra big business? There are individual people in this world worth more than Tapas. Tapas has a single headquarters in SF that's honestly? Pretty small compared to all the businesses around it.

But also, I think you're finding such a big percentage is being "lost" because you're valuing the extra ink at the same amount as purchased ink. For all intents and purposes, the "extra" ink you get as a bonus for purchasing certain amounts is free ink, so wouldn't it make sense for that to be worth less when given to the artist? In the same way ink earned through ads seems to be worth less? (though I could be wrong on that last part). What does the lost percentage add up to calculating only the base ink?

joannekwan · Nov '19

To add to this, I went and checked the same analysis site, scrolling farther down you can see the annual estimated profits

Tapas is as reported

There are some people in this world that make 500k by themselves every year.

whereas for Webtoons, well, it's a helluva lot more.

colinmooredraws · Nov '19

Thank you for your response.

This was my fear with the muddying of the question. It's not about the 15% that Tapas takes at the end.

There are a number of questions that I have on the matter of Ink:

At what stage does the 30% come out for Apple or Google? The dashboard for support suggests it comes in the same phase as the 15% to Tapas.
What is the value of 1 Ink? This being when it is in the system and given to a creator, as it shows up as a dollar amount.

My follow up of the sort of "conversion loss" that varies based on how much Ink is purchased by someone might change based on these answers. But it's still very concerning.

michaelson · Nov '19

I’ll look into the mechanics of how exactly the transaction works and outline the flow to you tomorrow after I verify with our dev team (it’s currently after hours for us).

As for the value of 1 ink - we don’t disclose this information as it does vary - some countries implement different systems that tax readers which impacts the overall unit cost.

michaelson · Nov '19

I wouldn’t categorize those estimates as accurate or reflective of our revenue numbers. Those also do not factor in app performance (I believe).

silverraven0 · Nov '19

As I'm not a math genius and pretty much getting confused with the numbers, here's some quote for you by other users that self calculated it :

TIPPING IS HERE! You're gunna want to get in on this

Here's the unofficial fee schedule for Tapas Coin Tips. Tapastic receives approximately a 15% convenience fee on all tips, regardless of their source. This fee helps offset development costs related to creating the program as well as hosting and logistics related to keeping the watch-to-earn network up and running. There is also a 30% Apple/Google fee for coins that are purchased through the store, which is a flat rate that Google/Apple charges anyone using their sales platform. This cost is simply being passed from Tapas onto the tip receiver without any additional mark up.

So worst case scenario, a creator will only receive 55% of their total tips.

Considering that in the print publishing industry Amazon/B&N/"retailers" take approximately 60% and Ingram/Baker&Taylor/"distributors" take an additional 10%, receiving 55% on Tapas is quite progressive. Plus you aren't out offset printing or freight costs.

TIPPING IS HERE! You're gunna want to get in on this

Let me explain my logic: I previously requested once or twice a month. Since tapas staff doesn't have an official schedule up for when they handle the transfers, these requests were a COMPLETE chancetaker. So sometimes I would make a request and get it handled within the promised 5-7 or 7-10 (can't remember which) days. Sometimes I would catch it on a bad time (assumingly right after they last handled the transfers) and it would take an insane amount of time for some reason.

What this resulted in is that some months I would be in the minus big time, and other months I would make profits that were huge compared to previous months just cause I had a lucky transfer and an old transfer that ended up being handled at last. Or, in simple language: Month 1 = Half a month's earnings or less, Month 2: Nearly two months worth of tapastic money transferred lolwat.I can't take chances like this since, I don't know about your country. but here in sweden we have preliminary tax. Meaning we pay tax each month, and as a company owner I have to estimate my own yearly income and it is then paid based upon that. I NEED a certain amount of money in order to pay preliminary tax, and it's preferrable in the calculations if the income doesn't jump up and down like that.This is probably (or well not probably, I've seen people mention this side of the issue) an even bigger problem for those who don't still live with their parents. Some months they might have issues paying their bills or certain expenses due to the transfers being jumpy and weird. Mainly people who have multiple income sources and need each one to work as it should.

Tapas staff need one or multiple of the following:An officially available schedule over their transfer handlingsAssistants who can handle the transfers regularilyOr just an automatic system.

I'm mentioning this because it's been an issue already before, but a manageable one since tapastic has only been a tiny spit in the ocean of most artists' incomes. Now it's climbing up to a level where it could become the main income source for many of the more active artists. That's great, and is probably what they've been attempting to achieve or at least get close to. Especially since it makes them a valuable competitor to Webtoon when it comes to their artists actually making a living off of their webcomics. However, if they want it to work that way, they need to fix the transfer issue.

I like tapastic a lot as a website, I like their staff and how they listen to the people who use their site, I like the changes they keep making (which is a biggie because tapastic is probably the only website I can think of that IMPROVES when it makes changes), and I want them to KEEP improving. Which is why I point out things that are broken so they can be fixed.

I also understand if it's been extra difficult to handle the transfers lately due to a lot of focus being on implementing and improving the tipping system as well as adding creators to it, but this is kinda why most sites have automatic transfers...

As for the fees on our tips, I think it's only fair and reasonable that they take some of the money to keep their business going. Let's think of tapas as something we co-work with to work towards success both for ourselves, and for them. Basically, if the whole community and the site flourishes, so will our individual art businesses.

TIPPING IS HERE! You're gunna want to get in on this

Edit; I just requested a transfer x.x the difference between balance and available is indeed the fees. Quite a lot I must say, it's about 25% fees that drop off our tips x.x

Here is the fee schedule:

-30% Purchased Coins-0% Earned Coins-15% Tipping Fee

So if someone buys 100 coins and gives you 100 coins, your actual take home coinage is 55 because 30 coins went to Google/Apple and 15 coins went to Tapas. Google/Apple charges 30% fee to everyone who uses them, whether Tapas or Pokemon GO. This is also why Costco can sell Google Play and iTunes cards for 18% off face value, because there's still 12% margins.

Meanwhile if someone earns 100 coins (via watching videos) and gives you 100 coins, your actual take home coinage is 85 because 15 coins went to Tapas.

15% may sound like a lot, but consider that Tapas has 6+ months of developer time invested into the program, plus server demands, ongoing logistics of having an ad network, processing payments to creators, etc. All of that requires making payroll. Tapas also had to acquire the capital to start through preferred funding so it could get the program going and has to repay that. Plus, Tapas is pouring a lot of the money back into developing more features and marketing themselves, so that creators can get even more tips. There is one staff member who is solely dedicated to growing the site. His title is Senior Director of Growth and he's hard at work behind the scenes doing what it takes to make sure Tapas grows more and more each month so that creators here can have a bigger and better audience.

The 15% fee is money well spent.

This is back when support are called tipping and inks were called coins.

Further reading here. it is a massive thread so :

https://forums.tapas.io/t/tipping-is-here-youre-gunna-want-to-get-in-on-this/15547

I remember that michaelson (?) once replied that at some point, they need to pay the fee for sending the payout from their own pocket because of the difference in exchange value on PayPal, but I can’t find it now.maybe my memory just made it up, idk.

My reply won’t help at anything I think, lol.

INK Concerns (with MATH!)

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